5 ms·

I wonder when they'll start hiring, well, educators. While engineering challenges may exist, Khan Academy's biggest scaling problem seems to be Khan's ability t

by apl 15y ago

I wonder when they'll start hiring, well, educators. While engineering challenges may exist, Khan Academy's biggest scaling problem seems to be Khan's ability to produce solid content. His biology stuff, for instance, is decidedly worse than the mathematics. Other than that: great move.

jc4p 15y ago
Do they need to actually hire educators? I understand that it would raise the level of knowledge but if I remember correctly from the last Google Hangout Khan said that they are currently working on a platform to make it easier for anyone to add things to KhanAcademy without having to do github pull requests.
- gatlin 15y ago
  Yes, they should. However, I think they should hire doctors of education in the same way they're hiring engineers: the engineers are creating the technical infrastructure to deliver lessons, and the educators should be creating the pedagogical standards and informing the engineers about what kinds of tools to create.
  - noobface 15y ago
    I highly doubt they're proceeding in the dark. While they may not have teachers on staff, I'm sure they're consulting with the brightest minds at the best universities to develop optimal delivery.
  - iskander 15y ago
    A doctorate in education is of dubious worth. As an academic field education research doesn't yet have the tools of structures to answer interesting questions. In place of rigorous theories there is currently a swamp of poorly verified or unverifiable notions. Hire teachers, hire experts, hire anyone who either has deep knowledge or experience transferring knowledge. Hopefully both. A doctorate in education, alone, provides neither. (this comment brought to you by small sample size interactions with real-life Ed.D. dunces)
    - gatlin 15y ago
      I was speaking about people like Dr Stroup or Dr Petrosino (I've had a class with the latter and read papers by the former) who are experts and have written compelling papers. However, you're right, my wording was bad. Anyone with a proven track record or some accomplishment in teaching should be considered. Both of these people have PhDs, I'm pretty sure, not EdDs.
    - robocat 15y ago
      The most exciting thing about being involved with software development is that it is a practical discipline that has both scientific testing (A/B, unit tests), and fast evolution that is discovering successful organisational structures and working processes. Education seems to test the wrong things (knowledge, ability at tests, not practical nor personal skills), and changes at glacial speeds (conservative, and aiming for politically motivated outcomes).
- apl 15y ago
  > Khan said that they are currently working on a platform > to make it easier for anyone to add things to KhanAcademy That strategy appears to ignore what made KA as successful as it is -- quality content. His 10 minute lessons on, say, calculus are genuinely well-made and effective; not too rigorous, but helpful and to the point. If they fully open up, KA becomes YouTube with exercises. Not what I find exciting about KA. Educational standards should be enforced, which necessitates the hiring of educators. I'd be disappointed if Khan falls into the good ol' Silicon Valley trap: believing that it's all about technology and platforms.
  - Symmetry 15y ago
    I don't know, as if they have a good enough method of evaluating lectures and only promoting the good ones. After all, look at the success of Wikipedia as compared to other encyclopedias. There is an important difference, of course, in that the ways you can incrementally improve a video lecture are much narrower. Still, though, there must be many qualified people who would be willing to record lectures for free, which doesn't have to be a full-time job like the technical side.
- droithomme 15y ago
  Everyone working there IS an educator. People saying "they don't hire educators" really mean that they don't hire as many people with Masters degrees in Education, which is known to be one of the degrees that attracts the lowest possible GRE scoring students, and which produces legions of incompetent "teachers" that have created a nation of ignoramuses. It's a good thing they don't hire more of these folks. They are the ones that have destroyed education in America, why would we want them to have anything to do with Khan Academy?
  - Retric 15y ago
    The average teacher might not be vary qualified, but there are some incredibly intelligent people that work in the education field. The main problem with education in America is inconsistent teacher quality and social issues that take place outside the classroom. So, having people on staff that understand say the cognitive neuroscience of memory would be a great idea, but adding someone that happened to get a Masters because it's a pay bump and they had to take continuing education credits every year anyway is probably a waste. PS: The Head first series is an example of what happens when you add educators into the mix. They might seem fluffy but they sell well and do teach people surprisingly well. http://my.safaribooksonline.com/book/programming/java/0596009208 http://my.safaribooksonline.com/book/programming/java/059600...
    - droithomme 15y ago
      Regarding the design of the Head First series, neither Kathy nor Bert have education degrees, Kathy's degree is in physiology and then she later switched to programming. Bert does say that he talked to teachers over the years while developing his philosophy of pedagogy, but so have a lot of people. If you are saying that Kathy and Bert are educators because they educate, then I agree, and that was my point in saying that obviously Khan Academy is populated by educators.
      - Retric 15y ago
        he talked to teachers over the years while developing his philosophy of pedagogy that's actually exactly what I am advocating. I am all for subject matter exports being the people on the stage, but they need to be informed of the basics behind learning. There are many great online lectures, but finding ways to add repetition without simply watching the same video again is critical. PS: Funding is clearly an issue, but there is a long history of education and some extremely valuable lessons have been learned the ridiculously expensive way. Leveraging that history does not take a lot of resources just a willingness to use them.
spicyj 15y ago
Recent KA hires have included: Beth Harris and Steven Zucker (http://smarthistory.khanacademy.org/ http://smarthistory.khanacademy.org/) Vi Hart (http://www.youtube.com/user/vihart http://www.youtube.com/user/vihart) Brit Cruise (http://www.youtube.com/user/ArtOfTheProblem http://www.youtube.com/user/ArtOfTheProblem)
knewter 15y ago
Ever read Ivan Illich's _Deschooling Society_? I like his take on this, and it doesn't particularly jive with what you're saying here. In general 'educators' generally are not so great.
jasonrr 15y ago
This is an ongoing falsehood. Several Khan Academy employees were real honest-to-goodness teachers, and we work with teachers directly in-person every single day to make the product and the content better. In addition, we are looking for more folks to make videos. Our standards are extremely high, and that will take time, but I disagree that this is our biggest challenge in scaling. Furthermore, your opinion of the Biology content may be spot-on, but there are thousands of students who say it's making their lives measurably better. Maybe it would be 100,000 if the content was better; it's hard to know for sure. I'm just not sure that it is directly affecting scale at this point, or that there's not a greater effect on scale trying to get more people to use our existing content. Disclaimer: I'm the lead designer for KA.
- jacoblyles 15y ago
  That's a worrisome attitude if your goal is to make the best site possible. Great sites aren't made by people that get defensive in response to user feedback. Rather, that's a recipe for stagnation and complacency.
  - jemfinch 15y ago
    His response seems reasonable in the face of factually incorrect user feedback based on widespread misconceptions. Don't overgeneralize.
    - jacoblyles 15y ago
      User feedback: "Materials for topic area X is poor compared to your flagship content." Employee response: "It's good enough/better than even worse options." That's a poor response, and not what I would expect from a team with the culture to make a great product.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - zacharycohn 15y ago
    That's not defensive, that's just a response to the statement...
veyron 15y ago
The biggest scaling problem is Sal. IIRC he is the only one making the videos.
- MaxGabriel 15y ago
  There are a couple others now
dirtyaura 15y ago
> His biology stuff, for instance, is decidedly worse than the mathematics. I dunno. I've been studying cell biology on my spare time. I've been using The Molecular Biology of the Cell (http://www.amazon.com/Molecular-Biology-Cell-Bruce-Alberts/dp/0815316194/ http://www.amazon.com/Molecular-Biology-Cell-Bruce-Alberts/d...) that in my opinion is a great book, and as far as I know, is well-respected in general. Still, watching Sal's biology videos has been of great help. Although I think e.g. his organic chemistry videos are better executed (~10 minutes per video, a bit less packed, better splits by content), I still think that his biology videos are a super-valuable resource. I've been watching some MIT lectures too, but visualizations, which are necessary for biology, aren't properly visible in them. Of the free biology content in the web, Sal's videos are the best IMO.

by apl 15y ago

jc4p 15y ago

Do they need to actually hire educators? I understand that it would raise the level of knowledge but if I remember correctly from the last Google Hangout Khan said that they are currently working on a platform to make it easier for anyone to add things to KhanAcademy without having to do github pull requests.

gatlin 15y ago
Yes, they should. However, I think they should hire doctors of education in the same way they're hiring engineers: the engineers are creating the technical infrastructure to deliver lessons, and the educators should be creating the pedagogical standards and informing the engineers about what kinds of tools to create.
- noobface 15y ago
  I highly doubt they're proceeding in the dark. While they may not have teachers on staff, I'm sure they're consulting with the brightest minds at the best universities to develop optimal delivery.
- iskander 15y ago
  A doctorate in education is of dubious worth. As an academic field education research doesn't yet have the tools of structures to answer interesting questions. In place of rigorous theories there is currently a swamp of poorly verified or unverifiable notions. Hire teachers, hire experts, hire anyone who either has deep knowledge or experience transferring knowledge. Hopefully both. A doctorate in education, alone, provides neither. (this comment brought to you by small sample size interactions with real-life Ed.D. dunces)
  - gatlin 15y ago
    I was speaking about people like Dr Stroup or Dr Petrosino (I've had a class with the latter and read papers by the former) who are experts and have written compelling papers. However, you're right, my wording was bad. Anyone with a proven track record or some accomplishment in teaching should be considered. Both of these people have PhDs, I'm pretty sure, not EdDs.
  - robocat 15y ago
    The most exciting thing about being involved with software development is that it is a practical discipline that has both scientific testing (A/B, unit tests), and fast evolution that is discovering successful organisational structures and working processes. Education seems to test the wrong things (knowledge, ability at tests, not practical nor personal skills), and changes at glacial speeds (conservative, and aiming for politically motivated outcomes).
apl 15y ago
> Khan said that they are currently working on a platform > to make it easier for anyone to add things to KhanAcademy That strategy appears to ignore what made KA as successful as it is -- quality content. His 10 minute lessons on, say, calculus are genuinely well-made and effective; not too rigorous, but helpful and to the point. If they fully open up, KA becomes YouTube with exercises. Not what I find exciting about KA. Educational standards should be enforced, which necessitates the hiring of educators. I'd be disappointed if Khan falls into the good ol' Silicon Valley trap: believing that it's all about technology and platforms.
- Symmetry 15y ago
  I don't know, as if they have a good enough method of evaluating lectures and only promoting the good ones. After all, look at the success of Wikipedia as compared to other encyclopedias. There is an important difference, of course, in that the ways you can incrementally improve a video lecture are much narrower. Still, though, there must be many qualified people who would be willing to record lectures for free, which doesn't have to be a full-time job like the technical side.
droithomme 15y ago
Everyone working there IS an educator. People saying "they don't hire educators" really mean that they don't hire as many people with Masters degrees in Education, which is known to be one of the degrees that attracts the lowest possible GRE scoring students, and which produces legions of incompetent "teachers" that have created a nation of ignoramuses. It's a good thing they don't hire more of these folks. They are the ones that have destroyed education in America, why would we want them to have anything to do with Khan Academy?
- Retric 15y ago
  The average teacher might not be vary qualified, but there are some incredibly intelligent people that work in the education field. The main problem with education in America is inconsistent teacher quality and social issues that take place outside the classroom. So, having people on staff that understand say the cognitive neuroscience of memory would be a great idea, but adding someone that happened to get a Masters because it's a pay bump and they had to take continuing education credits every year anyway is probably a waste. PS: The Head first series is an example of what happens when you add educators into the mix. They might seem fluffy but they sell well and do teach people surprisingly well. http://my.safaribooksonline.com/book/programming/java/0596009208 http://my.safaribooksonline.com/book/programming/java/059600...
  - droithomme 15y ago
    Regarding the design of the Head First series, neither Kathy nor Bert have education degrees, Kathy's degree is in physiology and then she later switched to programming. Bert does say that he talked to teachers over the years while developing his philosophy of pedagogy, but so have a lot of people. If you are saying that Kathy and Bert are educators because they educate, then I agree, and that was my point in saying that obviously Khan Academy is populated by educators.
    - Retric 15y ago
      he talked to teachers over the years while developing his philosophy of pedagogy that's actually exactly what I am advocating. I am all for subject matter exports being the people on the stage, but they need to be informed of the basics behind learning. There are many great online lectures, but finding ways to add repetition without simply watching the same video again is critical. PS: Funding is clearly an issue, but there is a long history of education and some extremely valuable lessons have been learned the ridiculously expensive way. Leveraging that history does not take a lot of resources just a willingness to use them.

spicyj 15y ago

Recent KA hires have included: Beth Harris and Steven Zucker (http://smarthistory.khanacademy.org/ http://smarthistory.khanacademy.org/) Vi Hart (http://www.youtube.com/user/vihart http://www.youtube.com/user/vihart) Brit Cruise (http://www.youtube.com/user/ArtOfTheProblem http://www.youtube.com/user/ArtOfTheProblem)

knewter 15y ago

Ever read Ivan Illich's _Deschooling Society_? I like his take on this, and it doesn't particularly jive with what you're saying here. In general 'educators' generally are not so great.

jasonrr 15y ago

This is an ongoing falsehood. Several Khan Academy employees were real honest-to-goodness teachers, and we work with teachers directly in-person every single day to make the product and the content better. In addition, we are looking for more folks to make videos. Our standards are extremely high, and that will take time, but I disagree that this is our biggest challenge in scaling. Furthermore, your opinion of the Biology content may be spot-on, but there are thousands of students who say it's making their lives measurably better. Maybe it would be 100,000 if the content was better; it's hard to know for sure. I'm just not sure that it is directly affecting scale at this point, or that there's not a greater effect on scale trying to get more people to use our existing content. Disclaimer: I'm the lead designer for KA.

jacoblyles 15y ago
That's a worrisome attitude if your goal is to make the best site possible. Great sites aren't made by people that get defensive in response to user feedback. Rather, that's a recipe for stagnation and complacency.
- jemfinch 15y ago
  His response seems reasonable in the face of factually incorrect user feedback based on widespread misconceptions. Don't overgeneralize.
  - jacoblyles 15y ago
    User feedback: "Materials for topic area X is poor compared to your flagship content." Employee response: "It's good enough/better than even worse options." That's a poor response, and not what I would expect from a team with the culture to make a great product.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- zacharycohn 15y ago
  That's not defensive, that's just a response to the statement...

veyron 15y ago

The biggest scaling problem is Sal. IIRC he is the only one making the videos.

MaxGabriel 15y ago
There are a couple others now

dirtyaura 15y ago

> His biology stuff, for instance, is decidedly worse than the mathematics. I dunno. I've been studying cell biology on my spare time. I've been using The Molecular Biology of the Cell (http://www.amazon.com/Molecular-Biology-Cell-Bruce-Alberts/dp/0815316194/ http://www.amazon.com/Molecular-Biology-Cell-Bruce-Alberts/d...) that in my opinion is a great book, and as far as I know, is well-respected in general. Still, watching Sal's biology videos has been of great help. Although I think e.g. his organic chemistry videos are better executed (~10 minutes per video, a bit less packed, better splits by content), I still think that his biology videos are a super-valuable resource. I've been watching some MIT lectures too, but visualizations, which are necessary for biology, aren't properly visible in them. Of the free biology content in the web, Sal's videos are the best IMO.