5 ms·

> Synthesis of external influence is unavoidable -- people being people Yeah, but that's not what's being discussed here, which is the importation of literal f

by tivert 4y ago

> Synthesis of external influence is unavoidable -- people being people Yeah, but that's not what's being discussed here, which is the importation of literal foreign people (immigration) in order to keep declining population numbers up, which is quite different. Immigration is a solution that strongly reflects Western liberal ideas and priorities.

tomrod 4y ago
> which is the importation of literal foreign people (immigration) in order to keep declining population numbers up, which is quite different. I disagree. Especially in modern times, immigrants moving somewhere else (i.e. exercising their natural right and freedom to move elsewhere) is a difference of degree of external influence, not a difference of kind. Thus, in scope for discussion.
- mc32 4y ago
  Nations also have the right to self-determination and may opt to not subsidize population growth deficits through the importation of a population. Japan gets to decide. They may decide then want to assimilate with China (or Philippines), or they may decide they want to remain natively Japanese. That's their call.
  - tomrod 4y ago
    > Nations also have the right to self-determination Where do these states gain these rights? Divine investiture? Might makes right? Inertia? What is is not what could be.
    - mc32 4y ago
      Via representative government. Even promoted by Lenin himself.
      - tomrod 4y ago
        Thus, in your view, might-makes-right is a proper policy? Pull up the ladder before anyone else can get in the treehouse? I'm unconcerned with what Lenin thought, personally.
        mc32 4y ago
        It’s not might makes right. The people who form a government and have jurisdiction through democratic government have the right to govern and be governed according to the rules they agree upon democratically. They’re not pulling up any ladder. They made the country for themselves. Others can make their own to their own liking as well. W/re Japan, it would be overwhelmed by Chinese, if they just let anyone in. China is big and strong enough for them to take care of their own people without needing to colonize Japan.
        tomrod 4y ago
        > The people who form a government and have jurisdiction through democratic government have the right to govern and be governed according to the rules they agree upon democratically. Which attempts to abrogate the right to free association and movement. "People vote with their feet" is a truism that applies here as well, in my view. > They made the country for themselves. When did Japan first incorporate? Long before the lifetime of the current population. > Others can make their own to their own liking as well. Where? What if three or four Japanese people want to declare an open border, making their own to their own liking? This principle falls apart. > W/re Japan, it would be overwhelmed by Chinese, if they just let anyone in. China is big and strong enough for them to take care of their own people without needing to colonize Japan. Therefore, what?
        midoridensha 4y ago
        So you're opposed to democracy then?
        tomrod 4y ago
        Strange flex to connect right to determination and hating democracy. We live in interesting times.
- tivert 4y ago
  > Thus, in scope for discussion. If it is, you're being too fuzzy about it in a way that makes claims that are simply not true. Specifically, some "synthesis of external influence" may be "unavoidable," but that does not mean immigration, especially legal immigration, is unavoidable. Embracing immigration is a policy choice the Japanese can decide not to make, even if Western liberals really disagree with the choice.
  - tomrod 4y ago
    I'm confused why you are describing a Venn diagram where Japan is in one circle and the vaguely defined "Western liberals" are the complement. Yes, the current administrators of Japan can set a governance policy on who it attempts to allow to go through "approved" channels. Enforcing it, and especially attempting to enforce it to prevent, what I believe would be fair to summarize your prior comments, cultural contamination, won't work for the cause I've already mentioned: synthesis of external influence.

by tivert 4y ago

tomrod 4y ago

> which is the importation of literal foreign people (immigration) in order to keep declining population numbers up, which is quite different. I disagree. Especially in modern times, immigrants moving somewhere else (i.e. exercising their natural right and freedom to move elsewhere) is a difference of degree of external influence, not a difference of kind. Thus, in scope for discussion.

mc32 4y ago
Nations also have the right to self-determination and may opt to not subsidize population growth deficits through the importation of a population. Japan gets to decide. They may decide then want to assimilate with China (or Philippines), or they may decide they want to remain natively Japanese. That's their call.
- tomrod 4y ago
  > Nations also have the right to self-determination Where do these states gain these rights? Divine investiture? Might makes right? Inertia? What is is not what could be.
  - mc32 4y ago
    Via representative government. Even promoted by Lenin himself.
    - tomrod 4y ago
      Thus, in your view, might-makes-right is a proper policy? Pull up the ladder before anyone else can get in the treehouse? I'm unconcerned with what Lenin thought, personally.
      - mc32 4y ago
        It’s not might makes right. The people who form a government and have jurisdiction through democratic government have the right to govern and be governed according to the rules they agree upon democratically. They’re not pulling up any ladder. They made the country for themselves. Others can make their own to their own liking as well. W/re Japan, it would be overwhelmed by Chinese, if they just let anyone in. China is big and strong enough for them to take care of their own people without needing to colonize Japan.
        tomrod 4y ago
        > The people who form a government and have jurisdiction through democratic government have the right to govern and be governed according to the rules they agree upon democratically. Which attempts to abrogate the right to free association and movement. "People vote with their feet" is a truism that applies here as well, in my view. > They made the country for themselves. When did Japan first incorporate? Long before the lifetime of the current population. > Others can make their own to their own liking as well. Where? What if three or four Japanese people want to declare an open border, making their own to their own liking? This principle falls apart. > W/re Japan, it would be overwhelmed by Chinese, if they just let anyone in. China is big and strong enough for them to take care of their own people without needing to colonize Japan. Therefore, what?
      - midoridensha 4y ago
        So you're opposed to democracy then?
        tomrod 4y ago
        Strange flex to connect right to determination and hating democracy. We live in interesting times.
tivert 4y ago
> Thus, in scope for discussion. If it is, you're being too fuzzy about it in a way that makes claims that are simply not true. Specifically, some "synthesis of external influence" may be "unavoidable," but that does not mean immigration, especially legal immigration, is unavoidable. Embracing immigration is a policy choice the Japanese can decide not to make, even if Western liberals really disagree with the choice.
- tomrod 4y ago
  I'm confused why you are describing a Venn diagram where Japan is in one circle and the vaguely defined "Western liberals" are the complement. Yes, the current administrators of Japan can set a governance policy on who it attempts to allow to go through "approved" channels. Enforcing it, and especially attempting to enforce it to prevent, what I believe would be fair to summarize your prior comments, cultural contamination, won't work for the cause I've already mentioned: synthesis of external influence.