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Your initial post rubbed me the wrong way, but the change is intellectually satisfying. I think the major component missing on the "do more" side is generation

Your initial post rubbed me the wrong way, but the change is intellectually satisfying. I think the major component missing on the "do more" side is generational suffering, I think the major component on the other side is "why do I have to sacrifice for my parents sins." Ultimately it is not "us vs them" and the solution does not have to be zero sum. That framing, the default framing, is bad for everyone. All of these discussions should come down to one core idea. Take more money from the rich and give it to the poor in the form of social programs in order to promote a more efficient and productive society. A rising tide lifts all boats. People can exist in a state of deprivation, satisfaction, and excess. As a society we have a responsibility to minimize deprivation. If we minimize deprivation, I think institutions will be able to stay meritocratic (which benefits society) without being corrupted by culture wars and political battles. I think that is probably the happy medium.

s1artibartfast 4y ago
Thanks for giving it a reread. I edited my post quite heavily to spell out my point and avoid language that might induce knee-jerk reactions to the idea. I think I broadly agree with what you are saying. The zero sum part comes into the picture when people consider it in terms of stack ranking, opposed to total suffering or deprivation. To advance from last place in a stack, someone needs to go down. Unfortunately so much of the conversation is mired in this framing that it is difficult to escape - so I am glad to find someone else willing to look beyond it. I do think there is a fundamental conflict between merit and an expectation of equal outcomes. How could there not be given the massive harm and intergenerational legacy of slavery. That is to say, we must deal with the world as it is, and this incudes real differences in merit, not because of genetics, but due to a harm so great the impacts are still persistent today. By way of metaphor, you can't beat someone bloody today, and expect them to perform with average merit tomorrow. The sad but inescapable truth is that this damage will persist for generations to come, no matter how much we tilt the scales of competition or break the rules. It is my personal opinion that we should double down on blinding our institutions to race, ensure equality of competition, while doing our best to help the poor engage in productive society, independent of race. I think many people would find this disagreeable, but I think it is the only solution compatible with treating people equally as induvial humans.

s1artibartfast 4y ago

Thanks for giving it a reread. I edited my post quite heavily to spell out my point and avoid language that might induce knee-jerk reactions to the idea. I think I broadly agree with what you are saying. The zero sum part comes into the picture when people consider it in terms of stack ranking, opposed to total suffering or deprivation. To advance from last place in a stack, someone needs to go down. Unfortunately so much of the conversation is mired in this framing that it is difficult to escape - so I am glad to find someone else willing to look beyond it. I do think there is a fundamental conflict between merit and an expectation of equal outcomes. How could there not be given the massive harm and intergenerational legacy of slavery. That is to say, we must deal with the world as it is, and this incudes real differences in merit, not because of genetics, but due to a harm so great the impacts are still persistent today. By way of metaphor, you can't beat someone bloody today, and expect them to perform with average merit tomorrow. The sad but inescapable truth is that this damage will persist for generations to come, no matter how much we tilt the scales of competition or break the rules. It is my personal opinion that we should double down on blinding our institutions to race, ensure equality of competition, while doing our best to help the poor engage in productive society, independent of race. I think many people would find this disagreeable, but I think it is the only solution compatible with treating people equally as induvial humans.