5 ms·

These studies seem to consistently play down the importance of "culture." By that, I mean that some families tend to place very great importance on education an

by msravi 3y ago

These studies seem to consistently play down the importance of "culture." By that, I mean that some families tend to place very great importance on education and learning (and consequently prioritize it above other activities), and these families are likely to be ones where the parents hold a bachelors/masters/phd degree. Somehow, the studies focus almost completely on the economic status that the family derives out of higher education and attribute all the benefits to income. Sure, there's definitely a link between how much time you can afford to spend on academics when you're poor, but after a threshold -- probably somewhere near middle income families -- the economic status starts to matter less and less, and the importance and priority accorded to education starts to matter a lot more. Kids from these families can also foresee their career path more clearly on account of having a parent already in the field. It's a natural and obvious effect, but to see this success as a negative and attribute it almost completely to income and nepotism is disingenuous.

boringg 3y ago
Agree it completely simplifies it so that it can lean in on inequality plot so they can leverage get more engagement. The family culture on science and education has a much greater weighting then money on outcome. I wonder if they could add that weighting to the equation how different the story line is. I am not discounting that money has benefits but theres a common narrative/fallacy that having the money drives outcomes. It's useless without culture. To be fair to the researchers the amount of effort to determine culture is more challenging -- requiring at minimum some kind of questionnaire.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
rayiner 3y ago
I think it's because the idea of culture is deeply offensive to individualistic Americans. Individual outcomes must either be the result of starting conditions (parent income/education/etc), or individual effort. Either way, you can think of each person individually, in terms of those variables. For people used to that model, it makes no sense to talk about "culture"--where outcomes depend on groups of individuals reinforcing norms. My parents both have masters degrees, most of their friends have at least a masters degree. They're still upset my brother never got past his bachelors (even though the reason he didn't is that he went from an Ivy into finance). When my parents get together with their friends they talk at length about where their kids are on the educational/career ladder. If you have the slightest inclination to follow the herd and care about what your parents think (which most kids do) then of course culture has a tremendous impact.
- hzay 3y ago
  Spot on. Culture is a taboo topic for Americans, although they're as influenced by it as it anyone else. The only kind of "culture" they can acknowledge (generalizing here but once I saw this, I couldn't unsee it) is one that is created with purpose, for a short term, like in software companies. Not the organic, multi-generation, undirected type.
  - kevviiinn 3y ago
    The individualism is part of the culture, and you're right it definitely influences outcomes
  - yamtaddle 3y ago
    It's not taboo on the right. You can find right-wingers who'll talk your ear off about how culture is what's "wrong" with, say, black America, all day long. Shit, if there are any first or second generation black African immigrants nearby while you're talking, they might chime in to strongly agree—I've seen that enough times that I'd say there's some substantial body of that demographic that's sympathetic to that point of view. Now, maybe you can dismiss this as a thin veneer over outright racism, but it's also not the only culture-related thing they're happy to talk about. They're huge on culture—at least, they're huge on talking about it. (for the record, my own politics are farther left than most elected Democrats, on practically every issue—I'm not striking a blow for "my tribe" here)
- erenyeager 3y ago
  Having looked you up and getting a profile, I would agree that culture is a factor but I still put it in the bucket of “unconfirmed significance”. Funny how stereotypes recall memories, but I am parts repulsed and parts impressed by the pigeonhole you fill. Anyways, it’s perhaps less about you than the milieu you represent. I imagine you can apply culture similarly to why white Americans would choose their own to advance up career ladders.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    Looking at your post history I suspect we are culturally not that different. That culture certainly seems like it helped (discouraging dating when young, getting and staying married, having children which creates motivation, etc). White Americans don’t “choose their own to advance.” People from my part of the world, and yours, are way more likely to favor their own ethnic groups.
q845712 3y ago
> Kids from these families can also foresee their career path more clearly This is very true. However I still think among people I knew, wealth counts for more. For example when I was in grad school one of the professors in our department liked to proudly remark that he was proof that you could have a viable career even if you change your field substantially in a second post-doc. Eventually I heard someone else explain it as, "Well, if your parents make a large donation to the lab then the PI will accept you as a free (no cost to the lab) post-doc and train you." In contrast, people I knew from academic families but with relatively middle-class financial means still got railroaded / pigeonholed into the areas where they specialized, even though they were much better at navigating academia than I was. I know, the above is just anecdotes. How could we resolve it? I dunno, run a study? But as you say wealth is much easier to measure than culture, so we may be stuck with our respective perspectives for a while...
the_third_wave 3y ago
All it takes to deflate the narrative is a look at the success rate of recent immigrants to the USA and compare that to those who have been there for generations. An honest observer will notice that e.g. Nigerian immigrants do much better on average than "African Americans" (an odd name given that those Nigerian immigrants are far more "African" than those who claimed this name for themselves). This difference in outcome can not be due to the often-claimed "systemic racism" since that would affect a Nigerian fresh out of Lagos just as much. What, then, is the difference? That thing which these studies studiously avoid: culture. Here's a few excerpts from an article [1] on the subject of Nigerians immigrants to the USA outperforming nearly all other groups - and yes, they outperform native-born Caucasians: Education is an essential part of our culture ... we were encouraged to excel. Parents expected it of us ... Sometimes that is why Nigerians in diaspora — especially the first generation — can be reluctant to talk about race and racial barriers, because we are conditioned to not say, ‘It is not going to work for me because . . . ’. They don’t want to talk about racial bias. They want to talk about the opportunities... By not looking for "racism" but taking their lot in their own hands this group of people ended up as one of the most successful [2] ethnic groups in the USA. Had the narrative around "systemic racism" been true this would not be the case, i.e. the narrative is false. It is not just false but it is pernicious in that it leads to exactly the lack of success which these studies claim to want to solve. [1] https://africans-in-america.com/2020/10/30/what-makes-nigerians-in-diaspora-so-successful/ https://africans-in-america.com/2020/10/30/what-makes-nigeri... [2] https://africacheck.org/fact-checks/spotchecks/yes-nigerian-americans-do-well-arent-most-successful-ethnic-group-us https://africacheck.org/fact-checks/spotchecks/yes-nigerian-...
- rayiner 3y ago
  > because we are conditioned to not say, ‘It is not going to work for me because . . . ’. They don’t want to talk about racial bias. They want to talk about the opportunities... As an immigrant raising “children of color” in America, this keeps me up at night. My parents never taught me to expect racism and so I’ve never encountered it in any meaningful sense living in this country. But folks are on a kick about it now and want to teach my kids to think that way, and I think it’s setting them up for failure. How does it help my kids to be looking for and see racism? Even if one of them grows up and has a racist boss, can they really do anything about it? They can’t. It just means they need to work harder.

by msravi 3y ago

boringg 3y ago

Agree it completely simplifies it so that it can lean in on inequality plot so they can leverage get more engagement. The family culture on science and education has a much greater weighting then money on outcome. I wonder if they could add that weighting to the equation how different the story line is. I am not discounting that money has benefits but theres a common narrative/fallacy that having the money drives outcomes. It's useless without culture. To be fair to the researchers the amount of effort to determine culture is more challenging -- requiring at minimum some kind of questionnaire.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

rayiner 3y ago

I think it's because the idea of culture is deeply offensive to individualistic Americans. Individual outcomes must either be the result of starting conditions (parent income/education/etc), or individual effort. Either way, you can think of each person individually, in terms of those variables. For people used to that model, it makes no sense to talk about "culture"--where outcomes depend on groups of individuals reinforcing norms. My parents both have masters degrees, most of their friends have at least a masters degree. They're still upset my brother never got past his bachelors (even though the reason he didn't is that he went from an Ivy into finance). When my parents get together with their friends they talk at length about where their kids are on the educational/career ladder. If you have the slightest inclination to follow the herd and care about what your parents think (which most kids do) then of course culture has a tremendous impact.

hzay 3y ago
Spot on. Culture is a taboo topic for Americans, although they're as influenced by it as it anyone else. The only kind of "culture" they can acknowledge (generalizing here but once I saw this, I couldn't unsee it) is one that is created with purpose, for a short term, like in software companies. Not the organic, multi-generation, undirected type.
- kevviiinn 3y ago
  The individualism is part of the culture, and you're right it definitely influences outcomes
- yamtaddle 3y ago
  It's not taboo on the right. You can find right-wingers who'll talk your ear off about how culture is what's "wrong" with, say, black America, all day long. Shit, if there are any first or second generation black African immigrants nearby while you're talking, they might chime in to strongly agree—I've seen that enough times that I'd say there's some substantial body of that demographic that's sympathetic to that point of view. Now, maybe you can dismiss this as a thin veneer over outright racism, but it's also not the only culture-related thing they're happy to talk about. They're huge on culture—at least, they're huge on talking about it. (for the record, my own politics are farther left than most elected Democrats, on practically every issue—I'm not striking a blow for "my tribe" here)
erenyeager 3y ago
Having looked you up and getting a profile, I would agree that culture is a factor but I still put it in the bucket of “unconfirmed significance”. Funny how stereotypes recall memories, but I am parts repulsed and parts impressed by the pigeonhole you fill. Anyways, it’s perhaps less about you than the milieu you represent. I imagine you can apply culture similarly to why white Americans would choose their own to advance up career ladders.
- rayiner 3y ago
  Looking at your post history I suspect we are culturally not that different. That culture certainly seems like it helped (discouraging dating when young, getting and staying married, having children which creates motivation, etc). White Americans don’t “choose their own to advance.” People from my part of the world, and yours, are way more likely to favor their own ethnic groups.

q845712 3y ago

> Kids from these families can also foresee their career path more clearly This is very true. However I still think among people I knew, wealth counts for more. For example when I was in grad school one of the professors in our department liked to proudly remark that he was proof that you could have a viable career even if you change your field substantially in a second post-doc. Eventually I heard someone else explain it as, "Well, if your parents make a large donation to the lab then the PI will accept you as a free (no cost to the lab) post-doc and train you." In contrast, people I knew from academic families but with relatively middle-class financial means still got railroaded / pigeonholed into the areas where they specialized, even though they were much better at navigating academia than I was. I know, the above is just anecdotes. How could we resolve it? I dunno, run a study? But as you say wealth is much easier to measure than culture, so we may be stuck with our respective perspectives for a while...

the_third_wave 3y ago

All it takes to deflate the narrative is a look at the success rate of recent immigrants to the USA and compare that to those who have been there for generations. An honest observer will notice that e.g. Nigerian immigrants do much better on average than "African Americans" (an odd name given that those Nigerian immigrants are far more "African" than those who claimed this name for themselves). This difference in outcome can not be due to the often-claimed "systemic racism" since that would affect a Nigerian fresh out of Lagos just as much. What, then, is the difference? That thing which these studies studiously avoid: culture. Here's a few excerpts from an article [1] on the subject of Nigerians immigrants to the USA outperforming nearly all other groups - and yes, they outperform native-born Caucasians: Education is an essential part of our culture ... we were encouraged to excel. Parents expected it of us ... Sometimes that is why Nigerians in diaspora — especially the first generation — can be reluctant to talk about race and racial barriers, because we are conditioned to not say, ‘It is not going to work for me because . . . ’. They don’t want to talk about racial bias. They want to talk about the opportunities... By not looking for "racism" but taking their lot in their own hands this group of people ended up as one of the most successful [2] ethnic groups in the USA. Had the narrative around "systemic racism" been true this would not be the case, i.e. the narrative is false. It is not just false but it is pernicious in that it leads to exactly the lack of success which these studies claim to want to solve. [1] https://africans-in-america.com/2020/10/30/what-makes-nigerians-in-diaspora-so-successful/ https://africans-in-america.com/2020/10/30/what-makes-nigeri... [2] https://africacheck.org/fact-checks/spotchecks/yes-nigerian-americans-do-well-arent-most-successful-ethnic-group-us https://africacheck.org/fact-checks/spotchecks/yes-nigerian-...

rayiner 3y ago
> because we are conditioned to not say, ‘It is not going to work for me because . . . ’. They don’t want to talk about racial bias. They want to talk about the opportunities... As an immigrant raising “children of color” in America, this keeps me up at night. My parents never taught me to expect racism and so I’ve never encountered it in any meaningful sense living in this country. But folks are on a kick about it now and want to teach my kids to think that way, and I think it’s setting them up for failure. How does it help my kids to be looking for and see racism? Even if one of them grows up and has a racist boss, can they really do anything about it? They can’t. It just means they need to work harder.