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Perhaps parents with PhDs pass on genetic traits that support their offspring in the competition for PhDs and faculty positions. Unless the analysis controls fo

by ncraig 3y ago

Perhaps parents with PhDs pass on genetic traits that support their offspring in the competition for PhDs and faculty positions. Unless the analysis controls for that dynamic, the research cannot correctly measure "socioeconomic" effects. As far as I can tell, the study does not attempt to do so.

yummypaint 3y ago
Eugenics has been shown time and time again to be junk/non science. This is like criticizing a dermatology study for not "controlling" for the possibility of lizard people.
- crackercrews 3y ago
  GP isn't referring to eugenics. GP is pointing out that there may be heritable traits that lead one to be more successful in a PhD program. This could be grit, determination, ability to focus, or ability to recognize patterns. It would be surprising if there were no heritable traits that affected success in PhD programs. GPs comment is no more eugenicist than someone pointing out that children of NBA players are more likely to play in the NBA because height is somewhat heritable.
  - medvezhenok 3y ago
    Or that children of Olympians are more likely than chance to be Olympians themselves :)
  - eitally 3y ago
    I think a lot of those attributes are at least as attributable to nurture as nature.
    - crackercrews 3y ago
      Possibly, and that's what the whole video is about. The point is that we don't know how much of the difference is behavioral or related to wealth if we don't even try to consider the possible effects of heritability.
  - dhosek 3y ago
    Or it could be that children of PhDs come from an environment where they know what’s required to get a PhD. Neither of my parents had bachelor’s degrees. I had no idea that any PhD worth its salt would be something that the PhD student was paid to attend rather than would pay to attend. And as an aside, my cousin’s husband has a PhD and yet none of his kids have graduate degrees, while in my family, out of three brothers, there’s a DVM, and MS and me with a MS and MFA.
    - crackercrews 3y ago
      No one is debating whether there are environmental factors. Surely there are. The point is that there are also likely heritable factors. These cannot be erased. And without measuring them, we don't know how much of a "problem" it is that many professors have PhD parents.
crackercrews 3y ago
Same thought here. They could look at children of PhDs versus children of MBAs/JDs. If you compare with the whole US population you're missing a lot of nuance.
hayst4ck 3y ago
I suppose what you're looking for is a study based on children adopted by PhDs. My intuition says genetics is vastly less important than memetics. Success is almost certainly proportional to ability to manage dopamine and I think nurture is probably vastly more important than nature (although I think nature can assert itself forcefully). This certainly seems to suggest that genetics probably is not a key factor: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/07/rich-people-raise-kids-family-wealth/399809/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/07/rich-pe... Because things like success are the result of many factors, I think the study is fair even in the absence of genetics. I have a hard time believing that genetics being a dominating factor for outcome would not be an obvious/major/easily discovered and proven finding.
- ars 3y ago
  I completely disagree. From my experience it's virtually 100% genetics. The reason it's not an "obvious/major/easily discovered and proven finding" is because it's basically illegal research. Anyone who tries to study the genetics of success gets their reputation and career destroyed because race and genetics are also linked.
  - hayst4ck 3y ago
    > From my experience I have a strong feeling that I am going to regret asking this, but what exactly is your experience?
    - ars 3y ago
      Working with lots of kids from various families. The kids end up like their birth parents, their economics or social environment makes little difference. Some kids are so opposed to how their parents are they actually move out (in early teens) and live with other people, and have little contact with their parents. And despite that, they still end up just like their parents once they are past the teen stage. It's also amazing to see how some kids are just like their father, some like their mother, and some a mix of both (some traits from one parent, some from the other parent). But you don't see kids who are unlike either parent.
onetimeusename 3y ago
This is a fair point. I think another point about this is how someone is socialized or raised by their parents. It could be that people from higher socioeconomic backgrounds value PhD work more so than others so they are more likely to attempt to do it. I don't really see the point in making the claim that there is some kind of bias against people from poorer backgrounds. It just inflames things. Maybe people from poorer backgrounds prefer to seek jobs with higher salaries.
- beezlebroxxxxxx 3y ago
  > I think another point about this is how someone is socialized or raised by their parents. Speaking as someone who went through grad school, there is an enormous amount of information that no one will tell you about unless you know to ask. Otherwise, they'll just assume you know. Basic parts of how academia works are not really explained or communicated to new grad students. So people with parents in academia, or with prior experience, can offer their children huge gains by simply explaining how certain processes work or what it actually means to excel as a grad student to prepare for the job hunt. It's not always "do good research", it could also be "make sure you make a relationship with so-and-so". Asymmetrical information can be a powerful explainer and tool.

by ncraig 3y ago

yummypaint 3y ago

Eugenics has been shown time and time again to be junk/non science. This is like criticizing a dermatology study for not "controlling" for the possibility of lizard people.

crackercrews 3y ago
GP isn't referring to eugenics. GP is pointing out that there may be heritable traits that lead one to be more successful in a PhD program. This could be grit, determination, ability to focus, or ability to recognize patterns. It would be surprising if there were no heritable traits that affected success in PhD programs. GPs comment is no more eugenicist than someone pointing out that children of NBA players are more likely to play in the NBA because height is somewhat heritable.
- medvezhenok 3y ago
  Or that children of Olympians are more likely than chance to be Olympians themselves :)
- eitally 3y ago
  I think a lot of those attributes are at least as attributable to nurture as nature.
  - crackercrews 3y ago
    Possibly, and that's what the whole video is about. The point is that we don't know how much of the difference is behavioral or related to wealth if we don't even try to consider the possible effects of heritability.
- dhosek 3y ago
  Or it could be that children of PhDs come from an environment where they know what’s required to get a PhD. Neither of my parents had bachelor’s degrees. I had no idea that any PhD worth its salt would be something that the PhD student was paid to attend rather than would pay to attend. And as an aside, my cousin’s husband has a PhD and yet none of his kids have graduate degrees, while in my family, out of three brothers, there’s a DVM, and MS and me with a MS and MFA.
  - crackercrews 3y ago
    No one is debating whether there are environmental factors. Surely there are. The point is that there are also likely heritable factors. These cannot be erased. And without measuring them, we don't know how much of a "problem" it is that many professors have PhD parents.

crackercrews 3y ago

Same thought here. They could look at children of PhDs versus children of MBAs/JDs. If you compare with the whole US population you're missing a lot of nuance.

hayst4ck 3y ago

I suppose what you're looking for is a study based on children adopted by PhDs. My intuition says genetics is vastly less important than memetics. Success is almost certainly proportional to ability to manage dopamine and I think nurture is probably vastly more important than nature (although I think nature can assert itself forcefully). This certainly seems to suggest that genetics probably is not a key factor: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/07/rich-people-raise-kids-family-wealth/399809/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/07/rich-pe... Because things like success are the result of many factors, I think the study is fair even in the absence of genetics. I have a hard time believing that genetics being a dominating factor for outcome would not be an obvious/major/easily discovered and proven finding.

ars 3y ago
I completely disagree. From my experience it's virtually 100% genetics. The reason it's not an "obvious/major/easily discovered and proven finding" is because it's basically illegal research. Anyone who tries to study the genetics of success gets their reputation and career destroyed because race and genetics are also linked.
- hayst4ck 3y ago
  > From my experience I have a strong feeling that I am going to regret asking this, but what exactly is your experience?
  - ars 3y ago
    Working with lots of kids from various families. The kids end up like their birth parents, their economics or social environment makes little difference. Some kids are so opposed to how their parents are they actually move out (in early teens) and live with other people, and have little contact with their parents. And despite that, they still end up just like their parents once they are past the teen stage. It's also amazing to see how some kids are just like their father, some like their mother, and some a mix of both (some traits from one parent, some from the other parent). But you don't see kids who are unlike either parent.

onetimeusename 3y ago

This is a fair point. I think another point about this is how someone is socialized or raised by their parents. It could be that people from higher socioeconomic backgrounds value PhD work more so than others so they are more likely to attempt to do it. I don't really see the point in making the claim that there is some kind of bias against people from poorer backgrounds. It just inflames things. Maybe people from poorer backgrounds prefer to seek jobs with higher salaries.

beezlebroxxxxxx 3y ago
> I think another point about this is how someone is socialized or raised by their parents. Speaking as someone who went through grad school, there is an enormous amount of information that no one will tell you about unless you know to ask. Otherwise, they'll just assume you know. Basic parts of how academia works are not really explained or communicated to new grad students. So people with parents in academia, or with prior experience, can offer their children huge gains by simply explaining how certain processes work or what it actually means to excel as a grad student to prepare for the job hunt. It's not always "do good research", it could also be "make sure you make a relationship with so-and-so". Asymmetrical information can be a powerful explainer and tool.