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The problem isn't the how of education. The problem is culture. We built an actively knowledge-hostile culture that glorifies and rewards managers, hustlers, g

by vkou 4y ago

The problem isn't the how of education. The problem is culture. We built an actively knowledge-hostile culture that glorifies and rewards managers, hustlers, grifters, and influencers, and we're then surprised that nobody with ambition wants to... Actually build things.

spacemadness 4y ago
Taking this back to STEM, what is the pay like for FAB jobs? How are employees treated? Hand wringing about math competence ignores whether the jobs themselves are competitive to their peers. If it requires a masters degree in EE, but pays less than a CS degree bachelors on average, the incentives are not going to be there for those that already are generally competent in the sciences.
- Robotbeat 4y ago
  Employees of Taiwanese fans work insane hours and one of the problems with replicating it here was workers not willing to work the hours that Taiwan did. Don’t know if pay in Taiwan is competitive, but when we’re talking about work/conditions, it should be pointed out.
  - philipkglass 4y ago
    The United States already has a lot of semiconductor fabs. It was only in recent years that AMD processors fabricated by TSMC overtook the performance of Intel processors fabricated by Intel. Is there something about newer process nodes that makes the employment conditions worse? Otherwise, I'd point to Intel fabs in the United States as an existence proof that the USA can get qualified workers for domestic semiconductor fabrication. (Plus US fabs operated by Texas Instruments, Samsung, GlobalFoundries, and others.)
    - Robotbeat 4y ago
      We were discussing being competitive with peers and what peers are doing vs what we are doing. It seemed pretty relevant. Also, I mentally separate long working hours from other aspects of “worker conditions.” You can have low working hours but a toxic and unsafe work environment or a physically safe and supportive work environment with long hours. You can also have high and low pay with various working hours (although typically high pay isn’t supported by low working hours unless the business has some sort of massive moat).
      - philipkglass 4y ago
        I'm saying that I don't know whether employees working insane hours is a necessary or incidental component of the TSMC success story. Up until very recently American fabs were technological leaders with (presumably) less insane hours for employees. My expectation is that American fabs with American-norm working hours would remain competitive as long as they didn't fall behind on node shrinks, which Intel notably failed at in recent years. Of course it's possible that insane working hours were why TSMC employees got EUV photolithography working at scale before any American manufacturer did. Was that the key difference between Intel and TSMC? It's a question that I personally haven't seen an answer to.
        garaetjjte 4y ago
        Related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35667282 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35667282
  - stainforth 4y ago
    That's a convenient tidbit put forth by who. Reject the premise that "replicating it" requires emphasizing this factor over others. If the true owners of Taiwanese fabs simply took less of the surplus share, the fab could be replicated here by spending more on American workers.
    - Robotbeat 4y ago
      I’m not sure that, in a competitive environment where profit margins are small, that working vast fewer hours is going to beat an aggressive approach like Taiwan’s. This wouldn’t be a problem, we just let Taiwan work themselves silly why we share in the benefit by getting better and better computer chips, but that doesn’t work if we want to COMPETE with Taiwan in this area.
- renewiltord 4y ago
  Friends and family work at the Intel fabs near Portland. They have worse work conditions than software engineers (on-call means you must drive to the fab) but they seem overall happy. They all have Ph.D.s in optics.
system16 4y ago
This is something that doesn't get enough attention. Youth in North America grow up being bombarded with the idea that becoming a celebrity is the pinnacle of success. Education is often seen as something for conformists. Meanwhile in Asia, children learn from a young age that studying hard and working hard leads to success. Being the smartest in your class is not something to be ashamed of, and not everybody grows up wanting to be a famous singer or athlete.
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  It's worse than that. Half the politics in this country are actively hostile to education, higher learning, and academics in general. They actively espouse a view that people who are educated are all wrong, and trying to brainwash people. They are dismantling public education in many states, and pushing as many people as possible towards private "schools" and homeschooling that seems to be more about teaching really out of date narratives than any actual education.
  - FpUser 4y ago
    >"Half the politics in this country are actively hostile to education, higher learning, and academics in general." Educated people are less likely to swallow corporate and Government bullshit and more difficult to control. Companies call them "overqualified".
- themaninthedark 4y ago
  There is a very large group of people that when you bring up working hard to be successful they start talking about how you can't pull yourself up by your own bootstraps.
granshaw 4y ago
I think more-and-more the culture angst isn't against building but rather ownership and equality; As in, you might be willing to build, but soon you might be frustrated that you don't see much of the fruits of your labor in terms of mobility or rewards. The pushback against the capitalist class is real and growing amongst the younger generations.
- vkou 4y ago
  I mean, rewards are part of it. It helps when your society is covered in frescoes and statues that glorify the engineer and the bricklayer... But when the wastrel of a director is driving a BMW, and you have a ten-year waiting list for a broken-down Lada, you may still feel some resentment against said director. The 'Rewards' side of things is pretty decent in some parts of STEM, but are rather lousy in others. Hardware work does poorly on this scale.
bjornsing 4y ago
I agree. Kids are smart (especially the ones who could potentially succeed in STEM). They’re not gonna go all in on math so they can work in a fab from dusk ‘till dawn for mediocre pay.

by vkou 4y ago

spacemadness 4y ago

Taking this back to STEM, what is the pay like for FAB jobs? How are employees treated? Hand wringing about math competence ignores whether the jobs themselves are competitive to their peers. If it requires a masters degree in EE, but pays less than a CS degree bachelors on average, the incentives are not going to be there for those that already are generally competent in the sciences.

Robotbeat 4y ago
Employees of Taiwanese fans work insane hours and one of the problems with replicating it here was workers not willing to work the hours that Taiwan did. Don’t know if pay in Taiwan is competitive, but when we’re talking about work/conditions, it should be pointed out.
- philipkglass 4y ago
  The United States already has a lot of semiconductor fabs. It was only in recent years that AMD processors fabricated by TSMC overtook the performance of Intel processors fabricated by Intel. Is there something about newer process nodes that makes the employment conditions worse? Otherwise, I'd point to Intel fabs in the United States as an existence proof that the USA can get qualified workers for domestic semiconductor fabrication. (Plus US fabs operated by Texas Instruments, Samsung, GlobalFoundries, and others.)
  - Robotbeat 4y ago
    We were discussing being competitive with peers and what peers are doing vs what we are doing. It seemed pretty relevant. Also, I mentally separate long working hours from other aspects of “worker conditions.” You can have low working hours but a toxic and unsafe work environment or a physically safe and supportive work environment with long hours. You can also have high and low pay with various working hours (although typically high pay isn’t supported by low working hours unless the business has some sort of massive moat).
    - philipkglass 4y ago
      I'm saying that I don't know whether employees working insane hours is a necessary or incidental component of the TSMC success story. Up until very recently American fabs were technological leaders with (presumably) less insane hours for employees. My expectation is that American fabs with American-norm working hours would remain competitive as long as they didn't fall behind on node shrinks, which Intel notably failed at in recent years. Of course it's possible that insane working hours were why TSMC employees got EUV photolithography working at scale before any American manufacturer did. Was that the key difference between Intel and TSMC? It's a question that I personally haven't seen an answer to.
      - garaetjjte 4y ago
        Related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35667282 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35667282
- stainforth 4y ago
  That's a convenient tidbit put forth by who. Reject the premise that "replicating it" requires emphasizing this factor over others. If the true owners of Taiwanese fabs simply took less of the surplus share, the fab could be replicated here by spending more on American workers.
  - Robotbeat 4y ago
    I’m not sure that, in a competitive environment where profit margins are small, that working vast fewer hours is going to beat an aggressive approach like Taiwan’s. This wouldn’t be a problem, we just let Taiwan work themselves silly why we share in the benefit by getting better and better computer chips, but that doesn’t work if we want to COMPETE with Taiwan in this area.
renewiltord 4y ago
Friends and family work at the Intel fabs near Portland. They have worse work conditions than software engineers (on-call means you must drive to the fab) but they seem overall happy. They all have Ph.D.s in optics.

system16 4y ago

This is something that doesn't get enough attention. Youth in North America grow up being bombarded with the idea that becoming a celebrity is the pinnacle of success. Education is often seen as something for conformists. Meanwhile in Asia, children learn from a young age that studying hard and working hard leads to success. Being the smartest in your class is not something to be ashamed of, and not everybody grows up wanting to be a famous singer or athlete.

mrguyorama 4y ago
It's worse than that. Half the politics in this country are actively hostile to education, higher learning, and academics in general. They actively espouse a view that people who are educated are all wrong, and trying to brainwash people. They are dismantling public education in many states, and pushing as many people as possible towards private "schools" and homeschooling that seems to be more about teaching really out of date narratives than any actual education.
- FpUser 4y ago
  >"Half the politics in this country are actively hostile to education, higher learning, and academics in general." Educated people are less likely to swallow corporate and Government bullshit and more difficult to control. Companies call them "overqualified".
themaninthedark 4y ago
There is a very large group of people that when you bring up working hard to be successful they start talking about how you can't pull yourself up by your own bootstraps.

granshaw 4y ago

I think more-and-more the culture angst isn't against building but rather ownership and equality; As in, you might be willing to build, but soon you might be frustrated that you don't see much of the fruits of your labor in terms of mobility or rewards. The pushback against the capitalist class is real and growing amongst the younger generations.

vkou 4y ago
I mean, rewards are part of it. It helps when your society is covered in frescoes and statues that glorify the engineer and the bricklayer... But when the wastrel of a director is driving a BMW, and you have a ten-year waiting list for a broken-down Lada, you may still feel some resentment against said director. The 'Rewards' side of things is pretty decent in some parts of STEM, but are rather lousy in others. Hardware work does poorly on this scale.

bjornsing 4y ago

I agree. Kids are smart (especially the ones who could potentially succeed in STEM). They’re not gonna go all in on math so they can work in a fab from dusk ‘till dawn for mediocre pay.