5 ms·

I feel like there is a certain level of cynicism and/or irony in much of western media that is not as present in Asian shows (I think this is a big part of anim

I feel like there is a certain level of cynicism and/or irony in much of western media that is not as present in Asian shows (I think this is a big part of anime's popularity). Strangely while over acting and over dramatization is a mainstay of SK and Japanese shows they somehow they feel more authentic, I think that is because the writers voice feels less edited in many ways. Anyway I hope the growing popularity of foreign shows leads to western media taking time to reassess what people are looking for in shows.

throwaway1777 3y ago
Ironically there’s probably more authenticity and realism in the western shows than the fantasy worlds of most kdramas and animes.
- sho_hn 3y ago
  I think what OP means to some extent is that the Korean media, while often showing "fantasy worlds", also rarely injects this with a pretense of authenticity as Western media nearly constantly does. It's easier to articulate in pop music, where a large chunk of popular pop songs is written, composed and demo-tape'd/vocal-guide'd by the same dozen or so of Scandinavan service companies, for both Western and Korean pop artists equally. But while the Western pop stars may act as if they're the auteurs of "their music" rather than being entertainers who were given a piece of music to sing as part of a carefully crafted product vision, in Korea, this is relatively above-board and neither talent nor consumers pretend otherwise. Don't get me wrong, the Korean pop music industry is terrible in many other ways (as is the pop industry in general), but there's something to be said for content not trying to fool you about what it is.
  - prottog 3y ago
    > also rarely injects this with a pretense of authenticity as Western media nearly constantly does In other words, a show is just a show, instead of the way it is in modern Western media, which is being an instrument of social change first and only incidentally a show. The latter is exhausting.
    - hourago 3y ago
      > instead of the way it is in modern Western media, which is being an instrument of social change first All art is a form of personal expression and it is full of new views and political change. I think that the difference is that in the West reactionary criticism permeates all social media. If a Japanese show tells the story of a set of characters fighting the global goverment injustices its viewers enjoy the show. If an American show tries to do the same a very small part of the population but very noisy will criticize it as "communist" and "politicized" instead of enjoying the real feelings of love and justice that humans enjoy in their stories.
      - jimmyjazz14 3y ago
        yeah I think there is absolutely a way to do a good show and have a social/political message and it usually comes down to tone and respecting the audience. Studio Ghibli is known for there positive and even relaxing tone but underneath the story is often a social/political message. That message is often subtle and weaved into the fibers of the story, its a message you feel not hear, if that makes sense. I think they achieve this because they respect their audience enough to give them something they will enjoy and to be smart enough to pick up on the subtle message in the content.
      - imbnwa 3y ago
        Like how Vinland Saga is literally a critique of "might makes right" patriarchal culture and its viscissitudes.
    - AYBABTME 3y ago
      Korean shows are definitely also an instrument for change. K-culture is a deliberate strategy from the SK government to increase its soft power. SK is resource poor, brain rich, and caught in between bigger players. It needs all the good will it can foster. In addition, the themes explored by K-dramas are often also meant to shape the narrative in Korea, or give visibility to problems. It's not uncommon for a social problem to be highlighted by a drama, and then for public outcry to cause the government to change laws or policies in response. But because SK society is quite conservative and patriarchal, it might not seem to you like social change or controversial.
  - bossyTeacher 3y ago
    > in pop music, where a large chunk of popular pop songs is written, composed and demo-tape'd/vocal-guide'd by the same dozen or so of Scandinavan service companies, any links to back this up?
    - mixmastamyk 3y ago
      DDG is your friend. Also look up 90s R&B producers lending expertise when they take that angle.
    - sho_hn 3y ago
      Look up e.g. Karl Martin Sandberg, Shellback, Cheiron Studios, Dsign Music, The Kennel, EKKO, Cosmos, Merlin, ... the composers themselves are often contractors working with many of these, and in turn it gets sold to big labels often via e.g. Warner or Universal. Sweden, Norway and Denmark are the pop songwriting hotbed, and pop music is a very systemized industry. It also happens every year that the same pop song is licensed multiple times into different markets where it's given localized lyrics and sung by locally popular pop artists. I'm too scatter-brained to immediately think of a recent example, but check out e.g. "Hot Summer" existing in German and Korean girl band versions.
- jimmyjazz14 3y ago
  When you were a kid and coming up with fun creative stories or just playing creatively did you inject a level of authenticity and realism to that play? Probably not because you were just being your authentic self, unedited and unspoiled, having fun. I think this is a little bit of the feel I get from a lot of korean/japanese media.
- abtinf 3y ago
  Why is it desirable for art to have "authenticity and realism"? Nowadays, those terms are just code for the malevolent and disturbed world view of some creators. I prefer art that depicts life as it could and ought to be.
throwaway6734 3y ago
Agree. My wife LOVES netflix's Korean rom-com shoes because of how straightforwardly cute they are. >Anyway I hope the growing popularity of foreign shows leads to western media taking time to reassess what people are looking for in shows. Agree. The age of everything being ironic, sassy, and whiny needs to end.
- sho_hn 3y ago
  > The age of everything being ironic, sassy, and whiny needs to end. Looking at you, modern Star Trek - a prime example of ironic, sassy and whiny not necessarily being any smarter.
  - imbnwa 3y ago
    Eh, Star Trek: Strange New Worlds captured the blend of levity and somber urgency that populated the seasons of original Star Trek and Star Trek: The Next Generation
    - midoridensha 3y ago
      That's not the Star Trek series the OP is referring to... Honestly, I'm shocked that SNW even came out, after seeing what an abomination Discovery was.
  - reaperducer 3y ago
    And not every science fiction show has to be a sermon on later-day ethics and values in every single episode. Looking at you, The Orville. And not every science fiction show has to evolve into a horror/zombie series. Looking at you, Firefly.
    - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
      > horror/zombie series I have never heard this said about Firefly. I consider the show to be more about human experimenting and creating super soldiers (River Tam) and that it just got cancelled before they could really get into it. I guess Serenity was more about conflicts with Reavers but I wouldn't exactly pin the Horror/Zombie label on the series because of that.
Fauntleroy 3y ago
They certainly have that in spades. Unfortunately they also seem to be "stuck" in the old fashioned 60-90 minute per episode korean time slot, which isn't super great for western audiences (I can only take so many 3-minute long slapstick filler interludes in a single episode). Hopefully this investment includes some encouragement to make more streamlined shows.
carabiner 3y ago
In the korean reality show Physical 100 they make a point of not showing sob stories for contestants. In US reality shows, the sob story is always something stupid like they got a bad haircut or shameless trauma dumping that I somehow doubt will be remedied by some literal hoops to jump through or the prize money.
PurpleRamen 3y ago
Asian shows have a similar level of cynicism and/or irony as western shows, but western viewers often don't understand them because they are simply lacking the cultural background, or it's just lost in translation. So they are not aware of the subtle parts which they understand in western shows.
- georgewsinger 3y ago
  Can you expand upon this? Curious to learn more (as an American who has consumed a lot of K-dramas, I often feel like subtleties sometimes fly over my head).
ryan_lane 3y ago
It's weird making a divide between western and asian here, especially on an article based on South Korea. Asia is very diverse, and there's massive differences in the content produced across different countries. South Korea is essentially on-par with the US in terms of production quality, whereas live-action Japanese shows are b-films at best. Also, I don't know what shows you're watching, but it's hard to understand what you're describing. A lot of anime (including some of the most popular) are full of cynicism and irony. Evangelion, attack on titan, ghost in the shell, etc. Korean shows especially tend to have this. Squid game being a prime example, but also most of the revenge shows (itaewon class, the glory, etc). Also, overacting is purposeful in Japanese shows (annoyingly), but less so in serious Korean dramas. Rom-coms everywhere purposely have overacting, because it's funny.
- jimmyjazz14 3y ago
  You are right that I shouldn't lump all Asian media together when I meant Japanese and South Korean. Also I said cynicism is less present not all together missing. I think there is a difference between portraying cynicism and espousing cynicism. I think shows like Evangelion and Squid Game portray a cynical world view but it is portrayed in a negative way not endorsed as a positive world view. Much of that is up for interpretation though I guess. There are other aspect that affect this as well context, contrast, etc. Maybe its not so much that western media is more cynical or ironic maybe its just that they don't do it in a way that works well in the story.
yieldcrv 3y ago
Hard disagree. I think people find the differing tropes to be refreshing, but once you recognize that culture’s tropes you’ll be at square one again.
- jimmyjazz14 3y ago
  I think the tropes are what people find refreshing honestly, tropes are often what the audience wants to see.
rhaway84773 3y ago
The biggest S Korean show in the “west” was Squid Game, which was nothing if not cynical. The Oscar winning movie Parasite is also steeped with pessimism and cynicism.

throwaway1777 3y ago

Ironically there’s probably more authenticity and realism in the western shows than the fantasy worlds of most kdramas and animes.

sho_hn 3y ago
I think what OP means to some extent is that the Korean media, while often showing "fantasy worlds", also rarely injects this with a pretense of authenticity as Western media nearly constantly does. It's easier to articulate in pop music, where a large chunk of popular pop songs is written, composed and demo-tape'd/vocal-guide'd by the same dozen or so of Scandinavan service companies, for both Western and Korean pop artists equally. But while the Western pop stars may act as if they're the auteurs of "their music" rather than being entertainers who were given a piece of music to sing as part of a carefully crafted product vision, in Korea, this is relatively above-board and neither talent nor consumers pretend otherwise. Don't get me wrong, the Korean pop music industry is terrible in many other ways (as is the pop industry in general), but there's something to be said for content not trying to fool you about what it is.
- prottog 3y ago
  > also rarely injects this with a pretense of authenticity as Western media nearly constantly does In other words, a show is just a show, instead of the way it is in modern Western media, which is being an instrument of social change first and only incidentally a show. The latter is exhausting.
  - hourago 3y ago
    > instead of the way it is in modern Western media, which is being an instrument of social change first All art is a form of personal expression and it is full of new views and political change. I think that the difference is that in the West reactionary criticism permeates all social media. If a Japanese show tells the story of a set of characters fighting the global goverment injustices its viewers enjoy the show. If an American show tries to do the same a very small part of the population but very noisy will criticize it as "communist" and "politicized" instead of enjoying the real feelings of love and justice that humans enjoy in their stories.
    - jimmyjazz14 3y ago
      yeah I think there is absolutely a way to do a good show and have a social/political message and it usually comes down to tone and respecting the audience. Studio Ghibli is known for there positive and even relaxing tone but underneath the story is often a social/political message. That message is often subtle and weaved into the fibers of the story, its a message you feel not hear, if that makes sense. I think they achieve this because they respect their audience enough to give them something they will enjoy and to be smart enough to pick up on the subtle message in the content.
    - imbnwa 3y ago
      Like how Vinland Saga is literally a critique of "might makes right" patriarchal culture and its viscissitudes.
  - AYBABTME 3y ago
    Korean shows are definitely also an instrument for change. K-culture is a deliberate strategy from the SK government to increase its soft power. SK is resource poor, brain rich, and caught in between bigger players. It needs all the good will it can foster. In addition, the themes explored by K-dramas are often also meant to shape the narrative in Korea, or give visibility to problems. It's not uncommon for a social problem to be highlighted by a drama, and then for public outcry to cause the government to change laws or policies in response. But because SK society is quite conservative and patriarchal, it might not seem to you like social change or controversial.
- bossyTeacher 3y ago
  > in pop music, where a large chunk of popular pop songs is written, composed and demo-tape'd/vocal-guide'd by the same dozen or so of Scandinavan service companies, any links to back this up?
  - mixmastamyk 3y ago
    DDG is your friend. Also look up 90s R&B producers lending expertise when they take that angle.
  - sho_hn 3y ago
    Look up e.g. Karl Martin Sandberg, Shellback, Cheiron Studios, Dsign Music, The Kennel, EKKO, Cosmos, Merlin, ... the composers themselves are often contractors working with many of these, and in turn it gets sold to big labels often via e.g. Warner or Universal. Sweden, Norway and Denmark are the pop songwriting hotbed, and pop music is a very systemized industry. It also happens every year that the same pop song is licensed multiple times into different markets where it's given localized lyrics and sung by locally popular pop artists. I'm too scatter-brained to immediately think of a recent example, but check out e.g. "Hot Summer" existing in German and Korean girl band versions.
jimmyjazz14 3y ago
When you were a kid and coming up with fun creative stories or just playing creatively did you inject a level of authenticity and realism to that play? Probably not because you were just being your authentic self, unedited and unspoiled, having fun. I think this is a little bit of the feel I get from a lot of korean/japanese media.
abtinf 3y ago
Why is it desirable for art to have "authenticity and realism"? Nowadays, those terms are just code for the malevolent and disturbed world view of some creators. I prefer art that depicts life as it could and ought to be.

throwaway6734 3y ago

Agree. My wife LOVES netflix's Korean rom-com shoes because of how straightforwardly cute they are. >Anyway I hope the growing popularity of foreign shows leads to western media taking time to reassess what people are looking for in shows. Agree. The age of everything being ironic, sassy, and whiny needs to end.

sho_hn 3y ago
> The age of everything being ironic, sassy, and whiny needs to end. Looking at you, modern Star Trek - a prime example of ironic, sassy and whiny not necessarily being any smarter.
- imbnwa 3y ago
  Eh, Star Trek: Strange New Worlds captured the blend of levity and somber urgency that populated the seasons of original Star Trek and Star Trek: The Next Generation
  - midoridensha 3y ago
    That's not the Star Trek series the OP is referring to... Honestly, I'm shocked that SNW even came out, after seeing what an abomination Discovery was.
- reaperducer 3y ago
  And not every science fiction show has to be a sermon on later-day ethics and values in every single episode. Looking at you, The Orville. And not every science fiction show has to evolve into a horror/zombie series. Looking at you, Firefly.
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
    > horror/zombie series I have never heard this said about Firefly. I consider the show to be more about human experimenting and creating super soldiers (River Tam) and that it just got cancelled before they could really get into it. I guess Serenity was more about conflicts with Reavers but I wouldn't exactly pin the Horror/Zombie label on the series because of that.

Fauntleroy 3y ago

They certainly have that in spades. Unfortunately they also seem to be "stuck" in the old fashioned 60-90 minute per episode korean time slot, which isn't super great for western audiences (I can only take so many 3-minute long slapstick filler interludes in a single episode). Hopefully this investment includes some encouragement to make more streamlined shows.

carabiner 3y ago

In the korean reality show Physical 100 they make a point of not showing sob stories for contestants. In US reality shows, the sob story is always something stupid like they got a bad haircut or shameless trauma dumping that I somehow doubt will be remedied by some literal hoops to jump through or the prize money.

PurpleRamen 3y ago

Asian shows have a similar level of cynicism and/or irony as western shows, but western viewers often don't understand them because they are simply lacking the cultural background, or it's just lost in translation. So they are not aware of the subtle parts which they understand in western shows.

georgewsinger 3y ago
Can you expand upon this? Curious to learn more (as an American who has consumed a lot of K-dramas, I often feel like subtleties sometimes fly over my head).

ryan_lane 3y ago

It's weird making a divide between western and asian here, especially on an article based on South Korea. Asia is very diverse, and there's massive differences in the content produced across different countries. South Korea is essentially on-par with the US in terms of production quality, whereas live-action Japanese shows are b-films at best. Also, I don't know what shows you're watching, but it's hard to understand what you're describing. A lot of anime (including some of the most popular) are full of cynicism and irony. Evangelion, attack on titan, ghost in the shell, etc. Korean shows especially tend to have this. Squid game being a prime example, but also most of the revenge shows (itaewon class, the glory, etc). Also, overacting is purposeful in Japanese shows (annoyingly), but less so in serious Korean dramas. Rom-coms everywhere purposely have overacting, because it's funny.

jimmyjazz14 3y ago
You are right that I shouldn't lump all Asian media together when I meant Japanese and South Korean. Also I said cynicism is less present not all together missing. I think there is a difference between portraying cynicism and espousing cynicism. I think shows like Evangelion and Squid Game portray a cynical world view but it is portrayed in a negative way not endorsed as a positive world view. Much of that is up for interpretation though I guess. There are other aspect that affect this as well context, contrast, etc. Maybe its not so much that western media is more cynical or ironic maybe its just that they don't do it in a way that works well in the story.

yieldcrv 3y ago

Hard disagree. I think people find the differing tropes to be refreshing, but once you recognize that culture’s tropes you’ll be at square one again.

jimmyjazz14 3y ago
I think the tropes are what people find refreshing honestly, tropes are often what the audience wants to see.

rhaway84773 3y ago

The biggest S Korean show in the “west” was Squid Game, which was nothing if not cynical. The Oscar winning movie Parasite is also steeped with pessimism and cynicism.