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Other countries have been dealing with Japan’s problem for decades now. Their population projections have been pretty accurate. They’ve been able to stave off t

Other countries have been dealing with Japan’s problem for decades now. Their population projections have been pretty accurate. They’ve been able to stave off the impending disaster facing Japan through immigration

mc32 4y ago
But would Japan be Japan when Japanese culture is replaced by an admixture of foreign cultures? People are attracted to Japan because of the uniqueness of their culture --like Tibet. One of the arguments against the annexation of Tibet by China is that it would dilute Tibetan culture and be replaced by Han culture, else that argument is moot and Tibetans are better off with the lesser dictatorship of the CCP over the theocracy of a Dalai Lama. One of the disgraceful things when traveling abroad is the "ghettoes" where all you see are foreign retirees, ex-pats and other "nomads" where local culture is replaced and a new culture emerges to cater to this new influx in order to extract commercial benefit. So the Spanish Riviera, Thai beaches, Dubai, (also in FL who cater to Spring Break, for example It's the cultural equivalent to the Strip Mall. In the US and Canada lots of towns have the similar feel because they have the common thread of national and regional chains which mimic national chains. This is something most people lament --but this is what would happen to Japan if they allowed mass migration so supplement their own population targets. It would be a country like many others with nothing distinguishing it apart.
- tomrod 4y ago
  > But would Japan be Japan when Japanese culture is replaced by an admixture of foreign cultures? Is Japan of 1950 also Japan of 2050? Its a sort of ship-of-Theseus issue, but when we recognize that cultures evolve, grow, mix, adapt, and continually become something wonderful, it's less of a concern in my mind. > Tibetans are better off with the lesser dictatorship of the CCP over the theocracy of a Dalai Lama. Oof, I doubt this is anywhere close to true given the treatment of minority groups under CCP policy. Sovereignty, forcibly taken, is rarely an improvement and is detrimental both to the people whose sovereignty was taken and to the people who took the sovereignty. Much better to engage in economic trade and diplomacy.
  - mc32 4y ago
    Right, but this is internal change and evolution rather than externally influenced. Japan is a high trust society. They are cohesive. That would change. Remember monocultures (as in one world monoculture) are not ideal? That we aspire to celebrate differences? Eventually, we'll have a homogenized world culture --that is not something I'd like to see. I prefer there being many different cultures with their OWN idiosyncrasies and ways of life.
    - tomrod 4y ago
      > That would change. Therefore, what?
  - tivert 4y ago
    > Is Japan of 1950 also Japan of 2050? Its a sort of ship-of-Theseus issue Is a house the same house if your tear it down and build a factory? > but when we recognize that cultures evolve, grow, mix, adapt, and continually become something wonderful, it's less of a concern in my mind. It should be noted that's the opinion of Western liberals, who are pretty culturally imperialistic and expect and demand that other cultures adopt their values and adapt to their preferences.
    - pjc50 4y ago
      The house argument is silly when applied to Japan of all places, which is known for frequently doing demolish-and-rebuild for wooden construction. Even one of the famous castles.
      - tivert 4y ago
        >> Is a house the same house if your tear it down and build a factory? > The house argument is silly when applied to Japan of all places, which is known for frequently doing demolish-and-rebuild for wooden construction. Even one of the famous castles. You misunderstood what I said, read it again. Is a factory the same house, if it was built on the same plot of land? It's an entirely different thing, and it's just nonsensical to bring up ship-of-Theseus in a case like that.
- randomopining 4y ago
  Exactly. People love uniqueness of cultures etc — but if there’s tons of mixing due to trying to hit “growth” standards of the modern capitalist world… every nation will end up the same mix of random people. Losing culture and replacing it with mono-consumerism.
- KptMarchewa 4y ago
  I don't think culture is "replaced" in any country that we've seen extended immigration too.
- chaostheory 4y ago
  > But would Japan be Japan when Japanese culture is replaced by an admixture of foreign cultures See the United States and Canada Xenophobia is both Japan’s strength and weakness
  - mc32 4y ago
    I don't think Japan "fears" foreigners. They just want to live their own lives without foreign influence. They like doing things their own way at their own pace.
    - chaostheory 4y ago
      That’s the same thing. They feel that their culture is too weak to assimilate foreigners
      - mc32 4y ago
        That does not make sense. When the Normans took over England over the decades they replaced the local culture and upset the language. It's not that England was "too weak" it's that the numbers meant the local culture would be absorbed. We can say the same about Taiwan after the '49 revolution and how it lost its Austronesian identity now it's mostly a Han culture. Modernization has similar effects but locals can modernize in their own way rather than import wholesale a new culture (India vs China).
        chaostheory 4y ago
        All of the examples that you’ve cited are just examples of “melting pots”. Culture wasn’t destroyed. It simply evolved. To my knowledge, the English do not speak a dialect of French Even if culture was destroyed, I don’t see it as a bad thing. Different languages and cultures are a barrier to empathy and historically it’s been a leading cause of conflict and violence. It’s too easy to “other” people whom you can’t communicate easily with Preserving culture at all costs for its own sake is backwards and it prevents progress
- pjc50 4y ago
  Japan is already heavily "admixed" with US culture as a result of a .. situation that developed not necessarily to their advantage.
antisthenes 4y ago
> Other countries have been dealing with Japan’s problem for decades now. Which countries are those? AFAIK, Japan is the one leading the trend in the demographic crisis, followed by some Eastern European countries.
- chaostheory 4y ago
  (Copying my other comment) Canada has been unable to naturally replenish their population since 1972. Now they have one of the highest immigration rates in the developed world which has let them stave off Japan’s problems for decades, enabling their entitlement programs to continue functioning As for the reason for Canada’s birth rate woes since 1972, it was not socioeconomic (it’s likely due to declining male fertility). Abortion was only legalized in 1988 in Canada. Housing was affordable during that time and its economy was strong during the long period of consecutive population declines. Of course, like many countries a large portion of Canada’s population, including liberals, are now against immigration due to a combination of housing woes and a healthcare system in turmoil. Unfortunately, Canada has no choice unless they want to see their economy further crater and not have the working adult population to pay for socialized programs such as healthcare. According to statscan, Canada’s NIST, even if they drastically increase immigration; it will only slow down the age population bomb and not prevent it i.e. Retired elderly will still eventually outnumber both working adults and children one day too soon. The speed will likely accelerate due to the Canadian public’s growing distaste for immigration.
  - kibwen 4y ago
    > it was not socioeconomic (it’s likely due to declining male fertility) Citation needed. Male fertility hasn't fallen anywhere near precipitously enough to make a father incapable of having a mere 2.1 children over the course of his entire reproductive lifetime. People aren't having fewer kids because they're incapable of having kids, it's because they're making the choice not to.
    - pjc50 4y ago
      Indeed. It does rather show how much this is a discussion among men with no female voices.

mc32 4y ago

But would Japan be Japan when Japanese culture is replaced by an admixture of foreign cultures? People are attracted to Japan because of the uniqueness of their culture --like Tibet. One of the arguments against the annexation of Tibet by China is that it would dilute Tibetan culture and be replaced by Han culture, else that argument is moot and Tibetans are better off with the lesser dictatorship of the CCP over the theocracy of a Dalai Lama. One of the disgraceful things when traveling abroad is the "ghettoes" where all you see are foreign retirees, ex-pats and other "nomads" where local culture is replaced and a new culture emerges to cater to this new influx in order to extract commercial benefit. So the Spanish Riviera, Thai beaches, Dubai, (also in FL who cater to Spring Break, for example It's the cultural equivalent to the Strip Mall. In the US and Canada lots of towns have the similar feel because they have the common thread of national and regional chains which mimic national chains. This is something most people lament --but this is what would happen to Japan if they allowed mass migration so supplement their own population targets. It would be a country like many others with nothing distinguishing it apart.

tomrod 4y ago
> But would Japan be Japan when Japanese culture is replaced by an admixture of foreign cultures? Is Japan of 1950 also Japan of 2050? Its a sort of ship-of-Theseus issue, but when we recognize that cultures evolve, grow, mix, adapt, and continually become something wonderful, it's less of a concern in my mind. > Tibetans are better off with the lesser dictatorship of the CCP over the theocracy of a Dalai Lama. Oof, I doubt this is anywhere close to true given the treatment of minority groups under CCP policy. Sovereignty, forcibly taken, is rarely an improvement and is detrimental both to the people whose sovereignty was taken and to the people who took the sovereignty. Much better to engage in economic trade and diplomacy.
- mc32 4y ago
  Right, but this is internal change and evolution rather than externally influenced. Japan is a high trust society. They are cohesive. That would change. Remember monocultures (as in one world monoculture) are not ideal? That we aspire to celebrate differences? Eventually, we'll have a homogenized world culture --that is not something I'd like to see. I prefer there being many different cultures with their OWN idiosyncrasies and ways of life.
  - tomrod 4y ago
    > That would change. Therefore, what?
- tivert 4y ago
  > Is Japan of 1950 also Japan of 2050? Its a sort of ship-of-Theseus issue Is a house the same house if your tear it down and build a factory? > but when we recognize that cultures evolve, grow, mix, adapt, and continually become something wonderful, it's less of a concern in my mind. It should be noted that's the opinion of Western liberals, who are pretty culturally imperialistic and expect and demand that other cultures adopt their values and adapt to their preferences.
  - pjc50 4y ago
    The house argument is silly when applied to Japan of all places, which is known for frequently doing demolish-and-rebuild for wooden construction. Even one of the famous castles.
    - tivert 4y ago
      >> Is a house the same house if your tear it down and build a factory? > The house argument is silly when applied to Japan of all places, which is known for frequently doing demolish-and-rebuild for wooden construction. Even one of the famous castles. You misunderstood what I said, read it again. Is a factory the same house, if it was built on the same plot of land? It's an entirely different thing, and it's just nonsensical to bring up ship-of-Theseus in a case like that.
randomopining 4y ago
Exactly. People love uniqueness of cultures etc — but if there’s tons of mixing due to trying to hit “growth” standards of the modern capitalist world… every nation will end up the same mix of random people. Losing culture and replacing it with mono-consumerism.
KptMarchewa 4y ago
I don't think culture is "replaced" in any country that we've seen extended immigration too.
chaostheory 4y ago
> But would Japan be Japan when Japanese culture is replaced by an admixture of foreign cultures See the United States and Canada Xenophobia is both Japan’s strength and weakness
- mc32 4y ago
  I don't think Japan "fears" foreigners. They just want to live their own lives without foreign influence. They like doing things their own way at their own pace.
  - chaostheory 4y ago
    That’s the same thing. They feel that their culture is too weak to assimilate foreigners
    - mc32 4y ago
      That does not make sense. When the Normans took over England over the decades they replaced the local culture and upset the language. It's not that England was "too weak" it's that the numbers meant the local culture would be absorbed. We can say the same about Taiwan after the '49 revolution and how it lost its Austronesian identity now it's mostly a Han culture. Modernization has similar effects but locals can modernize in their own way rather than import wholesale a new culture (India vs China).
      - chaostheory 4y ago
        All of the examples that you’ve cited are just examples of “melting pots”. Culture wasn’t destroyed. It simply evolved. To my knowledge, the English do not speak a dialect of French Even if culture was destroyed, I don’t see it as a bad thing. Different languages and cultures are a barrier to empathy and historically it’s been a leading cause of conflict and violence. It’s too easy to “other” people whom you can’t communicate easily with Preserving culture at all costs for its own sake is backwards and it prevents progress
pjc50 4y ago
Japan is already heavily "admixed" with US culture as a result of a .. situation that developed not necessarily to their advantage.

antisthenes 4y ago

> Other countries have been dealing with Japan’s problem for decades now. Which countries are those? AFAIK, Japan is the one leading the trend in the demographic crisis, followed by some Eastern European countries.

chaostheory 4y ago
(Copying my other comment) Canada has been unable to naturally replenish their population since 1972. Now they have one of the highest immigration rates in the developed world which has let them stave off Japan’s problems for decades, enabling their entitlement programs to continue functioning As for the reason for Canada’s birth rate woes since 1972, it was not socioeconomic (it’s likely due to declining male fertility). Abortion was only legalized in 1988 in Canada. Housing was affordable during that time and its economy was strong during the long period of consecutive population declines. Of course, like many countries a large portion of Canada’s population, including liberals, are now against immigration due to a combination of housing woes and a healthcare system in turmoil. Unfortunately, Canada has no choice unless they want to see their economy further crater and not have the working adult population to pay for socialized programs such as healthcare. According to statscan, Canada’s NIST, even if they drastically increase immigration; it will only slow down the age population bomb and not prevent it i.e. Retired elderly will still eventually outnumber both working adults and children one day too soon. The speed will likely accelerate due to the Canadian public’s growing distaste for immigration.
- kibwen 4y ago
  > it was not socioeconomic (it’s likely due to declining male fertility) Citation needed. Male fertility hasn't fallen anywhere near precipitously enough to make a father incapable of having a mere 2.1 children over the course of his entire reproductive lifetime. People aren't having fewer kids because they're incapable of having kids, it's because they're making the choice not to.
  - pjc50 4y ago
    Indeed. It does rather show how much this is a discussion among men with no female voices.