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I am watching vegan leather keenly. But leather as in cow leather is a great resource that would otherwise go unused if it wasn't for the market. People will

I am watching vegan leather keenly. But leather as in cow leather is a great resource that would otherwise go unused if it wasn't for the market. People will probably always eat a lot of cow, what else should we do with its skin?

hef19898 3y ago
Valid point, while I have no idea how the numbers look. But butchering cows, or other animals that provide hide for leather, and then not using said leather is kind of opposite of sustainability. Now one can argue about whether meat based diets are good or not, but as long as they exist there will be aources for leather.
- ElevenLathe 3y ago
  There is also the argument that anything we do to provide additional revenue for the cattle industry is an indirect subsidy for beef. If nobody bought leather, beef would have to be more expensive, which might reduce beef consumption and therefore the footprint of the cattle industry. I don't know enough about the markets involved to say how realistic this is, but it is an argument I've seen. You could also say the opposite: If nobody bought beef, leather would become much much more expensive, so therefore beef is an indirect subsidy to the leather industry. I've never seen this argument made anywhere though.
  - euroderf 3y ago
    I've had paragraph 1's thought myself. But yes, if lab-grown beef takes off then paragraph 2 applies too, and then leather becomes more difficult to justify. Does not detract from its utility though.
    - ElevenLathe 3y ago
      I hadn't thought of this before, but maybe lab-grown leather is actually a better use of industrially-cultured animal tissue? Seems like, as a durable material, it would be worth more investment (equipment, labor) per unit (mass, volume) of end product. Presumably it's harder to grow cultured leather than just to grow some goop that can be processed into something like hamburger meat though.
      - euroderf 3y ago
        Yeah I would imagine so. Meat/muscle seems relatively undifferentiated compared to hide/skin, which has layers and would need gradients to form properly.
slothtrop 3y ago
Those who eat cow won't oppose leather, so I don't see why there would be more unused disposed cow skin than prior. But on the question of what else could be done with it, I'm not sure. Are people more often opting for plastic/synthetic products owing to cost? There are lots of aesthetic and apparel applications for leather.
- jovial_cavalier 3y ago
  >I don't see why there would be more unused disposed cow skin than prior If the "vegan" product suddenly attains a real value other than "being vegan", for instance self repair, it may decrease the demand for regular old leather.
- kinghtown 3y ago
  There is a slowly growing awareness in the public that eating meat is unnecessary for good health, perhaps even a negative. The strain on the environment for meat farming and transportation is massive so I am all for having plant-based options which fulfill and satisfy any need for animal products. If mushroom or plant leather turns out to be better, like cheaper or more durable etc., then there will be much less demand for traditional leather and the price for milk and beef will increase and make alternatives all the more attractive. I’m a vegan and this sort of stuff is a total win.
okasaki 3y ago
There will always be dead people, maybe we should use their skin? What else could we do with it? Using animal skin for clothing and accessories is obscene.
- psychphysic 3y ago
  We do need to make better use of humans that's for sure. Organ donation rates are still pretty poor and funeral practices in the west are needlessly inhibitory to decomposition. There's been rumours of human leather forever, I reckon some people would quite like to be a jacket or suitcase!
  - dbsmith83 3y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lampshades_made_from_human_skin https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lampshades_made_from_human_s... Some disturbing historical precedent
- qumpis 3y ago
  If humans were grown in farms for the purpose of using their meat, then yes, we shouldn't waste them.
  - Spivak 3y ago
    And even still being opposed to products made from humans who die naturally is an emotional one not a logical one. I feel like people assume that human leather would look like human skin stitched together but would actually just look like every other leather. Google "leather before tanning" and it's just as creepy.
  - teh_klev 3y ago
    You might be interested in this rather dark read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under_the_Skin_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under_the_Skin_(novel)
nextaccountic 3y ago
> People will probably always eat a lot of cow, This is probably not true, vegan meat is progressing very fast (and once it matures has the potential to be much cheaper) and lowering the consumption of meat is important to reduce carbon emissions. I expect that demand for meat will sharply shrink in the next century
- psychphysic 3y ago
  Cheap nutrient and tasty vegan "meat" would probably be the most important innovation for civilization going forwards. Even Star Trek writers didn't seem to think replicator food would be as good as livestock shows it's significance
- dantyti 3y ago
  tl;dr: Reducing meat consumption should not rely on meat substitutes, it's a losing game. It's much better to explore alternative vegan dishes than to expect plant-based or lab-grown products to replace something that the average westerner consumes almost every day. I have reduced my meat and dairy consumption by well over 90% and I'd say that vegan meat substitutes are the worst option for people looking to reduce (or eliminate) meat consumption long term in terms of taste, texture, nutrition, climate impact (due to food processing) etc. At best, you get a 'passable' substitute when you could be having a delicious and nutritious meal instead. You wont ever get the taste and texture of a prime cut, cooked chicken skin, bacon or anything of the sort – so why bother? There are countless great vegan dishes that leave you fully satiated and won't bore you like textured plant proteins (TPP) would if you ate them every other day. Drastically reducing meat consumption required a change of habit and the way our family looked at food. If we ate meat/poultry every day, we couldn't rely on meat substitutes (aside from vat-grown meat, I guess), because you cannot really substitute the variety of cuts, fat to lean meat ratios, cooking versatility, organs (from pig ears to duck liver and beyond) that people consume. I found that consuming different types of TPP seven times a week, made me much more likely to throw in the towel well before someone who expanded their protein sources to chickpea (humus, falaffel), soy (tofu, tempeh), nuts (peanut and almond flour/butter), ate more mushrooms for the meaty flavor etc. Eliminating cheese from my diet was the hardest part for me. I am not holding my breath for passable vegan cheese substitutes to appear any time soon. Now, I'd say nutritional yeast and peanut butter scratch the itch for basic fermented cheese for me. To be fair, there is one meat substitute that I actually like – tofu spreads beat most liver pâtés. What I do is just blend some tofu with caramelized onions and nutritional yeast, add soy sauce or salt.
stametseater 3y ago
Have you ever noticed that native cultures are commonly praised for not wasting any part of the animal, yet the modern meat industry is vilified for not wasting any part of the animal ("pink slime", sausage, leather industry, etc)? I think this sort of contradiction is evidence of emotionally compromised reasoning.
- digging 3y ago
  You're right, but I think you're conflating arguments. Meat eaters should be proud to wear leather, eat byproduct, etc. Anything else would be waste, and it's shameful to act as you describe. But vegans want all of it to stop. There's nothing to waste to the animal isn't killed. Well, until it does naturally. There's nothing to waste if the animal isn't born though. And it wouldn't be born if we didn't have a culture of harvesting their bodies.
make3 3y ago
adding financial motivation to killing cows will end up in more cows killed. how many cows are used for milk & meat is a money calculation

hef19898 3y ago

Valid point, while I have no idea how the numbers look. But butchering cows, or other animals that provide hide for leather, and then not using said leather is kind of opposite of sustainability. Now one can argue about whether meat based diets are good or not, but as long as they exist there will be aources for leather.

ElevenLathe 3y ago
There is also the argument that anything we do to provide additional revenue for the cattle industry is an indirect subsidy for beef. If nobody bought leather, beef would have to be more expensive, which might reduce beef consumption and therefore the footprint of the cattle industry. I don't know enough about the markets involved to say how realistic this is, but it is an argument I've seen. You could also say the opposite: If nobody bought beef, leather would become much much more expensive, so therefore beef is an indirect subsidy to the leather industry. I've never seen this argument made anywhere though.
- euroderf 3y ago
  I've had paragraph 1's thought myself. But yes, if lab-grown beef takes off then paragraph 2 applies too, and then leather becomes more difficult to justify. Does not detract from its utility though.
  - ElevenLathe 3y ago
    I hadn't thought of this before, but maybe lab-grown leather is actually a better use of industrially-cultured animal tissue? Seems like, as a durable material, it would be worth more investment (equipment, labor) per unit (mass, volume) of end product. Presumably it's harder to grow cultured leather than just to grow some goop that can be processed into something like hamburger meat though.
    - euroderf 3y ago
      Yeah I would imagine so. Meat/muscle seems relatively undifferentiated compared to hide/skin, which has layers and would need gradients to form properly.

slothtrop 3y ago

Those who eat cow won't oppose leather, so I don't see why there would be more unused disposed cow skin than prior. But on the question of what else could be done with it, I'm not sure. Are people more often opting for plastic/synthetic products owing to cost? There are lots of aesthetic and apparel applications for leather.

jovial_cavalier 3y ago
>I don't see why there would be more unused disposed cow skin than prior If the "vegan" product suddenly attains a real value other than "being vegan", for instance self repair, it may decrease the demand for regular old leather.
kinghtown 3y ago
There is a slowly growing awareness in the public that eating meat is unnecessary for good health, perhaps even a negative. The strain on the environment for meat farming and transportation is massive so I am all for having plant-based options which fulfill and satisfy any need for animal products. If mushroom or plant leather turns out to be better, like cheaper or more durable etc., then there will be much less demand for traditional leather and the price for milk and beef will increase and make alternatives all the more attractive. I’m a vegan and this sort of stuff is a total win.

okasaki 3y ago

There will always be dead people, maybe we should use their skin? What else could we do with it? Using animal skin for clothing and accessories is obscene.

psychphysic 3y ago
We do need to make better use of humans that's for sure. Organ donation rates are still pretty poor and funeral practices in the west are needlessly inhibitory to decomposition. There's been rumours of human leather forever, I reckon some people would quite like to be a jacket or suitcase!
- dbsmith83 3y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lampshades_made_from_human_skin https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lampshades_made_from_human_s... Some disturbing historical precedent
qumpis 3y ago
If humans were grown in farms for the purpose of using their meat, then yes, we shouldn't waste them.
- Spivak 3y ago
  And even still being opposed to products made from humans who die naturally is an emotional one not a logical one. I feel like people assume that human leather would look like human skin stitched together but would actually just look like every other leather. Google "leather before tanning" and it's just as creepy.
- teh_klev 3y ago
  You might be interested in this rather dark read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under_the_Skin_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under_the_Skin_(novel)

nextaccountic 3y ago

> People will probably always eat a lot of cow, This is probably not true, vegan meat is progressing very fast (and once it matures has the potential to be much cheaper) and lowering the consumption of meat is important to reduce carbon emissions. I expect that demand for meat will sharply shrink in the next century

psychphysic 3y ago
Cheap nutrient and tasty vegan "meat" would probably be the most important innovation for civilization going forwards. Even Star Trek writers didn't seem to think replicator food would be as good as livestock shows it's significance
dantyti 3y ago
tl;dr: Reducing meat consumption should not rely on meat substitutes, it's a losing game. It's much better to explore alternative vegan dishes than to expect plant-based or lab-grown products to replace something that the average westerner consumes almost every day. I have reduced my meat and dairy consumption by well over 90% and I'd say that vegan meat substitutes are the worst option for people looking to reduce (or eliminate) meat consumption long term in terms of taste, texture, nutrition, climate impact (due to food processing) etc. At best, you get a 'passable' substitute when you could be having a delicious and nutritious meal instead. You wont ever get the taste and texture of a prime cut, cooked chicken skin, bacon or anything of the sort – so why bother? There are countless great vegan dishes that leave you fully satiated and won't bore you like textured plant proteins (TPP) would if you ate them every other day. Drastically reducing meat consumption required a change of habit and the way our family looked at food. If we ate meat/poultry every day, we couldn't rely on meat substitutes (aside from vat-grown meat, I guess), because you cannot really substitute the variety of cuts, fat to lean meat ratios, cooking versatility, organs (from pig ears to duck liver and beyond) that people consume. I found that consuming different types of TPP seven times a week, made me much more likely to throw in the towel well before someone who expanded their protein sources to chickpea (humus, falaffel), soy (tofu, tempeh), nuts (peanut and almond flour/butter), ate more mushrooms for the meaty flavor etc. Eliminating cheese from my diet was the hardest part for me. I am not holding my breath for passable vegan cheese substitutes to appear any time soon. Now, I'd say nutritional yeast and peanut butter scratch the itch for basic fermented cheese for me. To be fair, there is one meat substitute that I actually like – tofu spreads beat most liver pâtés. What I do is just blend some tofu with caramelized onions and nutritional yeast, add soy sauce or salt.

stametseater 3y ago

Have you ever noticed that native cultures are commonly praised for not wasting any part of the animal, yet the modern meat industry is vilified for not wasting any part of the animal ("pink slime", sausage, leather industry, etc)? I think this sort of contradiction is evidence of emotionally compromised reasoning.

digging 3y ago
You're right, but I think you're conflating arguments. Meat eaters should be proud to wear leather, eat byproduct, etc. Anything else would be waste, and it's shameful to act as you describe. But vegans want all of it to stop. There's nothing to waste to the animal isn't killed. Well, until it does naturally. There's nothing to waste if the animal isn't born though. And it wouldn't be born if we didn't have a culture of harvesting their bodies.

make3 3y ago

adding financial motivation to killing cows will end up in more cows killed. how many cows are used for milk & meat is a money calculation