4 ms·

There's a lot of working, intelligent people who would happily emigrate to Japan if: - They weren't somewhat hostile to immigration - Their working culture wa

There's a lot of working, intelligent people who would happily emigrate to Japan if: - They weren't somewhat hostile to immigration - Their working culture wasn't borderline slavery

hammyhavoc 3y ago
Who's "they"? Slavery means people are not remunerated and have no personal freedom. Japanese are definitely remunerated and definitely have personal freedom. "お疲れ様でした" (otsukaresamadeshita) = "Thank you for your hard work". Japan takes great pride in work. Just because you don't understand the culture doesn't give you the right to call it slavery. If you want to invoke a discussion on slavery in East Asia, do it in the right context. https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewelinaochab/2020/04/04/the-fate-of-uighur-muslims-in-china-from-re-education-camps-to-forced-labor/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewelinaochab/2020/04/04/the-fat...
- eulgro 3y ago
  The Japanese
  - hammyhavoc 3y ago
    Fuck me. That's a horrible broad stroke.
    - pessimizer 3y ago
      That Japanese work culture is exploitative? You might as well say it's a broad stroke to say Americans like hamburgers.
- nashashmi 3y ago
  We will have to accept a newer modern form of slavery. Where workers must work. And their options to move to a different job are little to none. It is what is binding women to work in Japan because living cost is high.
  - hammyhavoc 3y ago
    Where's the difference to the USA or UK with people taking second and third jobs just to make ends meet due to the cost of living? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_annual_labor_hours https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_a...
    - nashashmi 3y ago
      It's the holy grail of capitalistic and socialistic work cultures.
- tokai 3y ago
  borderline slavery =/= slavery There is absolutely nothing controversial about stating that work conditions in Japan are appalling. Calm down.
  - newmanships 3y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_annual_labor_hours https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_a...
- leidenfrost 3y ago
  I don't see the need to bring China to the conversation. If your entire waking hours have to be dedicated to working, what's the point of having a wage at all? I already know that Japanese culture takes great pride in work. I wasn't being literal with the word "slavery" (that's why I added "borderline" next to it). That pride doesn't make the day magically last longer than 24 hours. Being passionate with your work is great and all. But time is finite, and life passes by. If I'm left with no time to cultivate any hobbies or even spend quality time with my family and/or friends, then I don't see the point at all.
  - hammyhavoc 3y ago
    The need is because your comment diminishes actual modern slaving in East Asia and is an incredibly disrespectful stereotype of a "salaryman". Is American "crunch culture" any better? Does that crunch culture in America represent America as a whole? "The Organization for Economic Co-Operation and Development does annual research into the amount of work done by the average citizen in a given country over the course of the year. According to these statistics, these countries rank higher than Japan in terms of average working time in a year: Mexico, South Korea, Greece, Chile, Russia, Poland, Latvia, Israel, Iceland, Ireland, Estonia, Portugal, and the United States. Even New Zealand ranks higher than Japan on documented hours worked."
    - steveoscaro 3y ago
      The savior mentality is strong here
    - Lagavulin1816 3y ago
      Whataboutism at it's finest. Instead of trying to engage with the original commentee you try to steer the discussion towards "hey, but what about these places". Of course the working hours of the average American "paycheck-to-paycheck-working-three-jobs citizen" are insane but that is a direct consequence of hyper-capitalism. It is a matter of fact that the working conditions of the average salaryman are not well suited towards building families. There are more than enough statistics to support this fact, however, you need to be careful about the target demographics of the workers. Additionally, the social and cultural pressure to spend time with your coworkers and your boss after work means further time spent away from your (possible) family. I don't really understand why it is so difficult for you to accept the fact that Japanese working culture is not suitable for the 21st century. Automation and effiency is increasing accross nearly all white-collar industries and Japanese traditions still see it fit to mandate "arrive before your boss, leave after (sic!) him".
- yangikan 3y ago
  Not slavery, but https://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan...
zztop44 3y ago
I think language is a much bigger barrier than any purported hostility to immigration. Japanese visa laws are actually relatively open.
stainablesteel 3y ago
immigration is a bandaid, not a solution, to population collapse i honestly don't want to see countries import large swaths of people who don't agree with their culture and values the way europe has, its sad to see it happen the americas are much better at handling immigration, but eurasian countries should probably not try to copy it too hard. a better solution is to fix the culture and encourage women to have children

There's a lot of working, intelligent people who would happily emigrate to Japan if: - They weren't somewhat hostile to immigration - Their working culture wasn't borderline slavery

hammyhavoc 3y ago

Who's "they"? Slavery means people are not remunerated and have no personal freedom. Japanese are definitely remunerated and definitely have personal freedom. "お疲れ様でした" (otsukaresamadeshita) = "Thank you for your hard work". Japan takes great pride in work. Just because you don't understand the culture doesn't give you the right to call it slavery. If you want to invoke a discussion on slavery in East Asia, do it in the right context. https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewelinaochab/2020/04/04/the-fate-of-uighur-muslims-in-china-from-re-education-camps-to-forced-labor/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewelinaochab/2020/04/04/the-fat...

eulgro 3y ago
The Japanese
- hammyhavoc 3y ago
  Fuck me. That's a horrible broad stroke.
  - pessimizer 3y ago
    That Japanese work culture is exploitative? You might as well say it's a broad stroke to say Americans like hamburgers.
nashashmi 3y ago
We will have to accept a newer modern form of slavery. Where workers must work. And their options to move to a different job are little to none. It is what is binding women to work in Japan because living cost is high.
- hammyhavoc 3y ago
  Where's the difference to the USA or UK with people taking second and third jobs just to make ends meet due to the cost of living? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_annual_labor_hours https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_a...
  - nashashmi 3y ago
    It's the holy grail of capitalistic and socialistic work cultures.
tokai 3y ago
borderline slavery =/= slavery There is absolutely nothing controversial about stating that work conditions in Japan are appalling. Calm down.
- newmanships 3y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_annual_labor_hours https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_a...
leidenfrost 3y ago
I don't see the need to bring China to the conversation. If your entire waking hours have to be dedicated to working, what's the point of having a wage at all? I already know that Japanese culture takes great pride in work. I wasn't being literal with the word "slavery" (that's why I added "borderline" next to it). That pride doesn't make the day magically last longer than 24 hours. Being passionate with your work is great and all. But time is finite, and life passes by. If I'm left with no time to cultivate any hobbies or even spend quality time with my family and/or friends, then I don't see the point at all.
- hammyhavoc 3y ago
  The need is because your comment diminishes actual modern slaving in East Asia and is an incredibly disrespectful stereotype of a "salaryman". Is American "crunch culture" any better? Does that crunch culture in America represent America as a whole? "The Organization for Economic Co-Operation and Development does annual research into the amount of work done by the average citizen in a given country over the course of the year. According to these statistics, these countries rank higher than Japan in terms of average working time in a year: Mexico, South Korea, Greece, Chile, Russia, Poland, Latvia, Israel, Iceland, Ireland, Estonia, Portugal, and the United States. Even New Zealand ranks higher than Japan on documented hours worked."
  - steveoscaro 3y ago
    The savior mentality is strong here
  - Lagavulin1816 3y ago
    Whataboutism at it's finest. Instead of trying to engage with the original commentee you try to steer the discussion towards "hey, but what about these places". Of course the working hours of the average American "paycheck-to-paycheck-working-three-jobs citizen" are insane but that is a direct consequence of hyper-capitalism. It is a matter of fact that the working conditions of the average salaryman are not well suited towards building families. There are more than enough statistics to support this fact, however, you need to be careful about the target demographics of the workers. Additionally, the social and cultural pressure to spend time with your coworkers and your boss after work means further time spent away from your (possible) family. I don't really understand why it is so difficult for you to accept the fact that Japanese working culture is not suitable for the 21st century. Automation and effiency is increasing accross nearly all white-collar industries and Japanese traditions still see it fit to mandate "arrive before your boss, leave after (sic!) him".
yangikan 3y ago
Not slavery, but https://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan...

zztop44 3y ago

I think language is a much bigger barrier than any purported hostility to immigration. Japanese visa laws are actually relatively open.

stainablesteel 3y ago

immigration is a bandaid, not a solution, to population collapse i honestly don't want to see countries import large swaths of people who don't agree with their culture and values the way europe has, its sad to see it happen the americas are much better at handling immigration, but eurasian countries should probably not try to copy it too hard. a better solution is to fix the culture and encourage women to have children