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Why is this better than just using Dart/Flutter? The introduction docs also claim "In Electron and NWjs, you have to install Node.js and hundreds of dependency

by alpos 3y ago

Why is this better than just using Dart/Flutter? The introduction docs also claim "In Electron and NWjs, you have to install Node.js and hundreds of dependency libraries. Embedded Chromium and Node make simple apps bloaty. Neutralinojs offers a lightweight and portable SDK which is an alternative for Electron and NW.js." Yet the installation here starts with NPM and depends on Node. Sorry, but I don't see a significant difference between this and Electron just from the comparison chart linked in the docs. https://github.com/Elanis/web-to-desktop-framework-comparison/blob/main/README.md https://github.com/Elanis/web-to-desktop-framework-compariso... Save for the fact that Neutralinojs is not listed as having any support for automated testing where Electron does. The data there shows smaller and faster builds on empty apps but that doesn't count for much since no one ships empty apps. Needs a fair comparison against its claimed competitors using app examples that at least mimic real world apps. For example, if building the typical kind of application people would build in Electron still results in a smaller deliverable and much faster build, that would start to make a case for a better developer experience. Though I would guess that most developers would not switch and learn a new framework just to get slightly faster builds before considering test time. Integration test run times tend to take up most of the time in any build process.

twobitshifter 3y ago
I got the impression that node is needed to build but isn’t a dependency for the app you ship.
kitsunesoba 3y ago
I think Flutter’s potential is being and will continue to be dampened greatly by Dart. It doesn’t matter how good Dart is or how similar it becomes to other languages, it still has unique quirks and an ecosystem to be learned which makes it in the minds of most too much trouble for what’s realistically a single-use language. The only reason anybody bothers with Apple’s similarly restricted-usage languages is because they open up access to a whole set of platforms as well as a set of frameworks so wide and deep (Cocoa/Cocoa Touch) that it’s practical to develop a highly quality polished app with them without bringing in any third party dependencies, which I don’t think Flutter will ever be able to do.
schemescape 3y ago
With Electron, you ship practically an entire build of Chromium, which isn’t shared between other Electron apps. Neutralino uses system/shared browser components, similar to Tauri. How you ensure the shared components are available seems more difficult, but it’s clearly more efficient for end users.
rektide 3y ago
The development experience indeed uses the world's most popular JS tools (otherwise no one would use it), npm and node. But it looks like the server implementation is all c++ leveraging the existing we view framework to do it's thing. So the user footprint is indeed node-free. Your line of inquiry feels semi hostile to me & I'd like a lot to see a little more naunce & moderation & tentativeness rather than all guns blazing. Most of your post seems to be about developer experience, of whether developers need node or what the build time is. Personally I think the choices here are incredibly smart & sensible, make perfect sense, and do a great job to do the most important thing, which is give the developers enormous leverage to build a maximally lightweight & fast desktop webapp.
- EGreg 3y ago
  So here is the big question on Windows — can the final executable run when double-clicked or does it need to be given permissions by an installer? Take a look at redbean server. How does it accomplish this?

by alpos 3y ago

twobitshifter 3y ago

I got the impression that node is needed to build but isn’t a dependency for the app you ship.

kitsunesoba 3y ago

I think Flutter’s potential is being and will continue to be dampened greatly by Dart. It doesn’t matter how good Dart is or how similar it becomes to other languages, it still has unique quirks and an ecosystem to be learned which makes it in the minds of most too much trouble for what’s realistically a single-use language. The only reason anybody bothers with Apple’s similarly restricted-usage languages is because they open up access to a whole set of platforms as well as a set of frameworks so wide and deep (Cocoa/Cocoa Touch) that it’s practical to develop a highly quality polished app with them without bringing in any third party dependencies, which I don’t think Flutter will ever be able to do.

schemescape 3y ago

With Electron, you ship practically an entire build of Chromium, which isn’t shared between other Electron apps. Neutralino uses system/shared browser components, similar to Tauri. How you ensure the shared components are available seems more difficult, but it’s clearly more efficient for end users.

rektide 3y ago

The development experience indeed uses the world's most popular JS tools (otherwise no one would use it), npm and node. But it looks like the server implementation is all c++ leveraging the existing we view framework to do it's thing. So the user footprint is indeed node-free. Your line of inquiry feels semi hostile to me & I'd like a lot to see a little more naunce & moderation & tentativeness rather than all guns blazing. Most of your post seems to be about developer experience, of whether developers need node or what the build time is. Personally I think the choices here are incredibly smart & sensible, make perfect sense, and do a great job to do the most important thing, which is give the developers enormous leverage to build a maximally lightweight & fast desktop webapp.

EGreg 3y ago
So here is the big question on Windows — can the final executable run when double-clicked or does it need to be given permissions by an installer? Take a look at redbean server. How does it accomplish this?