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> If these problems continue to proliferate, society at large is not going to tolerate it You mean if society is convinced that these problems continue to prol

by teddyh 4y ago

> If these problems continue to proliferate, society at large is not going to tolerate it You mean if society is convinced that these problems continue to proliferate. And that’s the problem. Whether or not these specific problems actually exist and are widespread enough, they can always find something else to pretend to be upset about, and yell to reporters, who love to report on a good crisis. The public is then convinced that some problem or other is serious enough to bend the democratic and free speech principles “just a little, for this special case”, and then on to the next time, where it will all repeat again. Note that this has nothing to do with CSAM specifically, it’s just used as the latest scary thing, regardless if it is true or not. This has been called the “Four Horsemen of the Infocalypse”¹, but the general phenomenon is much older than that; witch trials have always existed in one form or another, whether they are called “witches” or not. My point is that solving the CSAM problem will change absolutely nothing to save E2EE. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Infocalypse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Infocalyp...

waselighis 4y ago
You may be right, but that's not the point. For some reason, I've been seeing many more stories about CSAM and child sex trafficking pop up in the last few weeks. These stories do suggest that the problem is getting worse, wherein it seems to be growing about 30% every year (however "growth" may be defined). But it doesn't matter how prolific these crimes may be in reality, all that matters is the public's perception of these problems. If people aren't convinced that there are other viable solutions, then the legislators win and say goodbye to E2EE.
- teddyh 4y ago
  > For some reason, I've been seeing many more stories […] pop up in the last few weeks. These stories do suggest that the problem is getting worse No they don’t. There being more stories simply suggest that reporters and news sites have nothing better to write about, and that politicians (and their sponsors) want to spread the idea that the problem is large, presumably in order to restrict people’s privacy unimpeded. If something (like CSAM, or terrorism, etc.) is a big problem, the relevant authorities should handle it, not the news media. If politicians wanted such a problem to be handled, they could get the police and other law enforcement agencies to do it. If politicians instead spread panic via the press, it suggests that what they want is something else entirely.
  - waselighis 4y ago
    > No they don’t. Umm, yes they do. I'm not claiming these stories to be factual or correct, but the news being reported is that the number of websites selling CSAM, the number of reports of grooming/trafficking they receive, and other factors has been growing by about 30% each year for the last few years. They suggest the growth is likely a result of the pandemic, among other factors. > If something (like CSAM, or terrorism, etc.) is a big problem, the relevant authorities should handle it, not the news media. If CSAM and child sex trafficking is indeed getting worse, and our government isn't doing enough about it, why shouldn't the news media report on it? The whole point of having a free press is to have an informed public that influences government policy. It would be irresponsible of the news media to not report on such problems (assuming the problem is getting worse and it's not just a ploy to convince us to give up our privacy and security). If you have evidence to the contrary (the problem isn't really getting worse), please do share. But being willfully ignorant and denying the problem exists isn't helping anybody.
    - teddyh 4y ago
      You are accusing me of denying the problem exists, when in fact I am not discussing any specific problem at all. You are letting your feelings take over and paint me as your adversary in all things, when in fact I am not. The rise of reporting of something does not prove any increase of the actual incidents of that same thing. They are not necessarily correlated. > I'm not claiming these stories to be factual or correct, but the news being reported […] suggest the growth is likely a result of the pandemic, among other factors. You just assumed that the increase in reports correspond to an actual real phenomenon. They might, but do not have to be. > The whole point of having a free press is to have an informed public that influences government policy. The press cannot solve these problems just by publishing stories, and it is ludicrous to think that the authorities are not aware of the problems and trying to solve them. So what value does the press bring by pronouncing some problem to be the latest catastrophe? As far as I can see, all it does is give politicians a specific problem to claim to be able to solve if they were elected. But they won’t solve it, because if the problem could be solved, it probably already would be. And the damage done in the name of solving the problem may be much worse than the problem itself, if it ever was significant in the first place. Your proposed solution would make it easier for people to report one another for serious crimes, which would have the potential to ruin very many people’s lives. Likely magnitudes more people than would actually be helped. Systems where people can very easily report each other to the police (or other unaccountable overseers) tend to turn out like that.

by teddyh 4y ago

waselighis 4y ago

You may be right, but that's not the point. For some reason, I've been seeing many more stories about CSAM and child sex trafficking pop up in the last few weeks. These stories do suggest that the problem is getting worse, wherein it seems to be growing about 30% every year (however "growth" may be defined). But it doesn't matter how prolific these crimes may be in reality, all that matters is the public's perception of these problems. If people aren't convinced that there are other viable solutions, then the legislators win and say goodbye to E2EE.

teddyh 4y ago
> For some reason, I've been seeing many more stories […] pop up in the last few weeks. These stories do suggest that the problem is getting worse No they don’t. There being more stories simply suggest that reporters and news sites have nothing better to write about, and that politicians (and their sponsors) want to spread the idea that the problem is large, presumably in order to restrict people’s privacy unimpeded. If something (like CSAM, or terrorism, etc.) is a big problem, the relevant authorities should handle it, not the news media. If politicians wanted such a problem to be handled, they could get the police and other law enforcement agencies to do it. If politicians instead spread panic via the press, it suggests that what they want is something else entirely.
- waselighis 4y ago
  > No they don’t. Umm, yes they do. I'm not claiming these stories to be factual or correct, but the news being reported is that the number of websites selling CSAM, the number of reports of grooming/trafficking they receive, and other factors has been growing by about 30% each year for the last few years. They suggest the growth is likely a result of the pandemic, among other factors. > If something (like CSAM, or terrorism, etc.) is a big problem, the relevant authorities should handle it, not the news media. If CSAM and child sex trafficking is indeed getting worse, and our government isn't doing enough about it, why shouldn't the news media report on it? The whole point of having a free press is to have an informed public that influences government policy. It would be irresponsible of the news media to not report on such problems (assuming the problem is getting worse and it's not just a ploy to convince us to give up our privacy and security). If you have evidence to the contrary (the problem isn't really getting worse), please do share. But being willfully ignorant and denying the problem exists isn't helping anybody.
  - teddyh 4y ago
    You are accusing me of denying the problem exists, when in fact I am not discussing any specific problem at all. You are letting your feelings take over and paint me as your adversary in all things, when in fact I am not. The rise of reporting of something does not prove any increase of the actual incidents of that same thing. They are not necessarily correlated. > I'm not claiming these stories to be factual or correct, but the news being reported […] suggest the growth is likely a result of the pandemic, among other factors. You just assumed that the increase in reports correspond to an actual real phenomenon. They might, but do not have to be. > The whole point of having a free press is to have an informed public that influences government policy. The press cannot solve these problems just by publishing stories, and it is ludicrous to think that the authorities are not aware of the problems and trying to solve them. So what value does the press bring by pronouncing some problem to be the latest catastrophe? As far as I can see, all it does is give politicians a specific problem to claim to be able to solve if they were elected. But they won’t solve it, because if the problem could be solved, it probably already would be. And the damage done in the name of solving the problem may be much worse than the problem itself, if it ever was significant in the first place. Your proposed solution would make it easier for people to report one another for serious crimes, which would have the potential to ruin very many people’s lives. Likely magnitudes more people than would actually be helped. Systems where people can very easily report each other to the police (or other unaccountable overseers) tend to turn out like that.