4 ms·

I’m guessing they got it backwards accidentally: I’d say the distinction between [y ʉ] is strictly phonetic, not phonemic.

by bradrn 3y ago

int_19h 3y ago
What I meant is that whether a given language is analyzed as having /y/ or /ʉ/ is often down to phonemics - i.e. how that vowel groups with others - and not to the minute distinctions in how it is actually pronounced (especially once you take allophones and regional pronunciations into account). FWIW I'm even not sure there are any languages that actually have a phonemic distinction between /y/ and /ʉ/ or between /ɨ/ and /ɯ/. I'm sure there are some, but I would be very surprised if the actual distinction cannot be more sensibly analyzed in other terms (length etc).
- gdprrrr 3y ago
  Norwegian has /ʏ, yː, ʉ, ʉː, ʊ, uː/. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_phonology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_phonology
  - int_19h 3y ago
    Very interesting, thank you. I knew that vowel inventory in Germanic languages can get very impressive, but that formant chart is quite something: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_phonology#/media/File:Formant_values_of_Urban_East_Norwegian_monophthongs.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_phonology#/media/Fil... In the phonetic realization section, though, there's this: "The close /ʏ, yː, ʉ, ʉː/ have been variously described as protruded [ʏʷ, yʷː] and compressed [ʉ͍, ʉ͍ː] as well as compressed [ʏ͍, y͍ː] and protruded [ʉʷ, ʉʷː]. The backness of /ʉ, ʉː/ has also been variously described as central [ʉ, ʉː] and near-front [ʉ̟, ʉ̟ː]. Therefore, /ʏ, yː/ may be differentiated from /ʉ, ʉː/ by backness and the type of rounding or even only by the type of rounding" This last bit is actually even more surprising: two front-ish rounded vowels that are distinguished solely by how the lips are rounded? I can't help but wonder how stable such an arrangement could be long term.
    - gdprrrr 3y ago
      I have also found this about Swedish > Rounded vowels have two types of rounding: /ɵ/, /ʉː/, /ʊ/ and /uː/ are compressed [...] > /ʏ/, /yː/, /œ/ and its pre-/r/ allophone [œ̞], /øː/ and its pre-/r/ allophone [œ̞ː], /ɔ/ and /oː/ are protruded [...] > Type of rounding is the primary way of distinguishing /ʉː, ɵ/ from /yː, œ/, especially in Central Standard Swedish. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_phonology https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_phonology More about different kinds of rounding at https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundedness https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundedness

I’m guessing they got it backwards accidentally: I’d say the distinction between [y ʉ] is strictly phonetic, not phonemic.

by bradrn 3y ago

I’m guessing they got it backwards accidentally: I’d say the distinction between [y ʉ] is strictly phonetic, not phonemic.

int_19h 3y ago

What I meant is that whether a given language is analyzed as having /y/ or /ʉ/ is often down to phonemics - i.e. how that vowel groups with others - and not to the minute distinctions in how it is actually pronounced (especially once you take allophones and regional pronunciations into account). FWIW I'm even not sure there are any languages that actually have a phonemic distinction between /y/ and /ʉ/ or between /ɨ/ and /ɯ/. I'm sure there are some, but I would be very surprised if the actual distinction cannot be more sensibly analyzed in other terms (length etc).

gdprrrr 3y ago
Norwegian has /ʏ, yː, ʉ, ʉː, ʊ, uː/. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_phonology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_phonology
- int_19h 3y ago
  Very interesting, thank you. I knew that vowel inventory in Germanic languages can get very impressive, but that formant chart is quite something: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_phonology#/media/File:Formant_values_of_Urban_East_Norwegian_monophthongs.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_phonology#/media/Fil... In the phonetic realization section, though, there's this: "The close /ʏ, yː, ʉ, ʉː/ have been variously described as protruded [ʏʷ, yʷː] and compressed [ʉ͍, ʉ͍ː] as well as compressed [ʏ͍, y͍ː] and protruded [ʉʷ, ʉʷː]. The backness of /ʉ, ʉː/ has also been variously described as central [ʉ, ʉː] and near-front [ʉ̟, ʉ̟ː]. Therefore, /ʏ, yː/ may be differentiated from /ʉ, ʉː/ by backness and the type of rounding or even only by the type of rounding" This last bit is actually even more surprising: two front-ish rounded vowels that are distinguished solely by how the lips are rounded? I can't help but wonder how stable such an arrangement could be long term.
  - gdprrrr 3y ago
    I have also found this about Swedish > Rounded vowels have two types of rounding: /ɵ/, /ʉː/, /ʊ/ and /uː/ are compressed [...] > /ʏ/, /yː/, /œ/ and its pre-/r/ allophone [œ̞], /øː/ and its pre-/r/ allophone [œ̞ː], /ɔ/ and /oː/ are protruded [...] > Type of rounding is the primary way of distinguishing /ʉː, ɵ/ from /yː, œ/, especially in Central Standard Swedish. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_phonology https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_phonology More about different kinds of rounding at https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundedness https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundedness