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It’s part of a broader trend of enshittification that has hollowed out the middle. I blame the concentration of market power in the hands of a few large compani

It’s part of a broader trend of enshittification that has hollowed out the middle. I blame the concentration of market power in the hands of a few large companies, mostly privately held. So you can pay far more for something good, or you can resign yourself to replacing the garbage everyone sells these days in the rapacious pursuit of shareholder value extraction.

foxyv 3y ago
I've found most of the shitty garbage I buy has a single point of failure that can be replaced with a quality part. A plastic gear replaced with brass or steel. A capacitor. Sometimes just a dodgy USB port. A slowly degrading OS that is eventually discontinued. I've extended the life of several devices by decades through simple repairs. It is no wonder that these same companies that want you buying a new washer/fridge/oven every 4 years are opposing right to repair. They love adding walled gardens to their products. Even our BBQs are getting electronic garbage added that can't be fixed normally...
- m463 3y ago
  I wonder if you're touching on the ikea effect - your modification makes it more valuable to you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_effect Personally, I found that if the product is heavy, don't buy it on amazon. Everything is relentlessly based on shipping costs. If you buy wire shelves on amazon, they cost slightly less but the entire unit is far less durable.
  - foxyv 3y ago
    Naw, I'm just cheap. My washer had to literally fall apart before I replaced it. Cheap galvanized cast iron junk that vibrated itself to death. Our family motto is "I can make it cheaper than that!" which tells you how often we fall victim to the IKEA effect. Lately I like to budget out my projects so I know if I'm actually saving any money. Especially considering labor. Most of my projects lately are stuff I can't get for hook or crook from anywhere. You are totally right about heavy stuff on Amazon. To your door freight is SO expensive. The problem is all the stores are setting their prices to Amazon's prices.
listenallyall 3y ago
> the rapacious pursuit of shareholder value extraction It's always the fault of greedy corporatists here on HN -- honestly, that is just lazy thinking. Sure, they want to make money. But also, the average Joe wants stuff cheap. Made in China, lots of plastics replacing metal, lower-density materials, fewer fixable/replaceable parts, limited quality control. You can't really blame companies who build their products like this when it's shown over and over and over that cheap stuff is what sells.
- aintgonnatakeit 3y ago
  This explains the growth in the low end but not the lack of decent mid-range options. We no longer have good/better/best. We only have shitty/best and one is 10x the price of the other. Of course Joe Blow isn’t going to spring for the 10x option; he can’t afford it. In the min-maxing of profit margins, we’ve lost the pretty ok. Also I didn’t blame the corporations man; I specifically blamed market consolidation, greedy investors, and the output of HBS.
  - dnissley 3y ago
    Either you need the item onceish so you buy the cheap option, or you use it a lot so you buy the expensive option. Those in between can find a used expensive option on marketplace/craigslist/etc. Not a lot of demand left in between after that.
  - listenallyall 3y ago
    > We only have shitty/best and one is 10x the price of the other. Such as? Every product I've considered buying in the past few years has more price points and options than ever before. Yes many of them are ultra-cheap, but plenty of mid-priced options as well. For example a new top of the line GoPro Hero11 is $550. However you can easily find other action cams anywhere from under $99 to $450, some of which are other GoPro products.
    - propogandist 3y ago
      gopro is commodity hardware with a lot of marketing and branding to try and command a premium purchase price
biomcgary 3y ago
Planned obsolescence is the subscription model for physical goods.
wilg 3y ago
Is there data on enshittification? I suspect people are overstating this. In theory making a product simpler and cheaper and lighter and easier to manufacture is better. The downside is (if it’s even true) reliability and “feel”.
- kevviiinn 3y ago
  Better for who, exactly
  - wilg 3y ago
    Everyone
    - kevviiinn 3y ago
      Cheap goods that break and need to be replaced not only end up costing more through replacement and repair but also harm the environment through greater pollution and energy use due to more items being manufactured
      - wilg 3y ago
        Only if the replacement rate is higher than the cost of extra materials for each unit. Otherwise, the opposite is true.
        kevviiinn 3y ago
        So you're saying that manufacturing a greater number of items does not use more energy? That doesn't sound quite right to me
        wilg 3y ago
        Almost right. Manufacturing a greater number of items does not necessarily use more energy. For example, manufacturing 1,000,000 paperclips probably uses less energy and material than 1 car. Let's say you have a sturdy product with a 1% defect and replacement rate. You make 1000 of them. You have to replace 10 of them, so you've manufactured 1,010 of them in total. Let's say they each use 100 grams of material. You've used 101,000g of material. Now you redesign it to save 1 gram of weight, but it doubles the defect rate. Again, you make 1000 of them. You have to replace 20 of them, so you manufacture 1,020 of them. But because of the 1g material reduction per unit, you've used less material overall – 100,980g. These are just easy numbers to work with, but it's not hard to imagine many products might work like this. And the same calculation can be done for either energy or materials.
red-iron-pine 3y ago
> mostly privately held Nah. Privately held means that they don't need to pander for next quarter's numbers. Publicly traded is always a race to the bottom.

foxyv 3y ago

I've found most of the shitty garbage I buy has a single point of failure that can be replaced with a quality part. A plastic gear replaced with brass or steel. A capacitor. Sometimes just a dodgy USB port. A slowly degrading OS that is eventually discontinued. I've extended the life of several devices by decades through simple repairs. It is no wonder that these same companies that want you buying a new washer/fridge/oven every 4 years are opposing right to repair. They love adding walled gardens to their products. Even our BBQs are getting electronic garbage added that can't be fixed normally...

m463 3y ago
I wonder if you're touching on the ikea effect - your modification makes it more valuable to you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_effect Personally, I found that if the product is heavy, don't buy it on amazon. Everything is relentlessly based on shipping costs. If you buy wire shelves on amazon, they cost slightly less but the entire unit is far less durable.
- foxyv 3y ago
  Naw, I'm just cheap. My washer had to literally fall apart before I replaced it. Cheap galvanized cast iron junk that vibrated itself to death. Our family motto is "I can make it cheaper than that!" which tells you how often we fall victim to the IKEA effect. Lately I like to budget out my projects so I know if I'm actually saving any money. Especially considering labor. Most of my projects lately are stuff I can't get for hook or crook from anywhere. You are totally right about heavy stuff on Amazon. To your door freight is SO expensive. The problem is all the stores are setting their prices to Amazon's prices.

listenallyall 3y ago

> the rapacious pursuit of shareholder value extraction It's always the fault of greedy corporatists here on HN -- honestly, that is just lazy thinking. Sure, they want to make money. But also, the average Joe wants stuff cheap. Made in China, lots of plastics replacing metal, lower-density materials, fewer fixable/replaceable parts, limited quality control. You can't really blame companies who build their products like this when it's shown over and over and over that cheap stuff is what sells.

aintgonnatakeit 3y ago
This explains the growth in the low end but not the lack of decent mid-range options. We no longer have good/better/best. We only have shitty/best and one is 10x the price of the other. Of course Joe Blow isn’t going to spring for the 10x option; he can’t afford it. In the min-maxing of profit margins, we’ve lost the pretty ok. Also I didn’t blame the corporations man; I specifically blamed market consolidation, greedy investors, and the output of HBS.
- dnissley 3y ago
  Either you need the item onceish so you buy the cheap option, or you use it a lot so you buy the expensive option. Those in between can find a used expensive option on marketplace/craigslist/etc. Not a lot of demand left in between after that.
- listenallyall 3y ago
  > We only have shitty/best and one is 10x the price of the other. Such as? Every product I've considered buying in the past few years has more price points and options than ever before. Yes many of them are ultra-cheap, but plenty of mid-priced options as well. For example a new top of the line GoPro Hero11 is $550. However you can easily find other action cams anywhere from under $99 to $450, some of which are other GoPro products.
  - propogandist 3y ago
    gopro is commodity hardware with a lot of marketing and branding to try and command a premium purchase price

biomcgary 3y ago

Planned obsolescence is the subscription model for physical goods.

wilg 3y ago

Is there data on enshittification? I suspect people are overstating this. In theory making a product simpler and cheaper and lighter and easier to manufacture is better. The downside is (if it’s even true) reliability and “feel”.

kevviiinn 3y ago
Better for who, exactly
- wilg 3y ago
  Everyone
  - kevviiinn 3y ago
    Cheap goods that break and need to be replaced not only end up costing more through replacement and repair but also harm the environment through greater pollution and energy use due to more items being manufactured
    - wilg 3y ago
      Only if the replacement rate is higher than the cost of extra materials for each unit. Otherwise, the opposite is true.
      - kevviiinn 3y ago
        So you're saying that manufacturing a greater number of items does not use more energy? That doesn't sound quite right to me
        wilg 3y ago
        Almost right. Manufacturing a greater number of items does not necessarily use more energy. For example, manufacturing 1,000,000 paperclips probably uses less energy and material than 1 car. Let's say you have a sturdy product with a 1% defect and replacement rate. You make 1000 of them. You have to replace 10 of them, so you've manufactured 1,010 of them in total. Let's say they each use 100 grams of material. You've used 101,000g of material. Now you redesign it to save 1 gram of weight, but it doubles the defect rate. Again, you make 1000 of them. You have to replace 20 of them, so you manufacture 1,020 of them. But because of the 1g material reduction per unit, you've used less material overall – 100,980g. These are just easy numbers to work with, but it's not hard to imagine many products might work like this. And the same calculation can be done for either energy or materials.

red-iron-pine 3y ago

> mostly privately held Nah. Privately held means that they don't need to pander for next quarter's numbers. Publicly traded is always a race to the bottom.