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The dots are indeed called umlauts, at least in English: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umlaut_(diacritic) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umlaut_(diacritic)

ska 3y ago
I think OP's contention was that in Swedish these are not diacritical marks, but different letters.
- okamiueru 3y ago
  Indeed. The equivalent Norwegian letters are æ/Æ, ø/Ø, å/Å (in the correct order). And you wouldn't call those umlauts either.
- Findecanor 3y ago
  I think the OP is splitting hairs. I'd say that they are just as much different letters in German, from which the word "Umlaut" comes. One is replaced with the other in word inflections. For instance, the noun "Land" is "Länder" in plural — both in German and Swedish. But what the two dots are not: they are definitely not diaeresis.
  - silvestrov 3y ago
    no, it is not splitting hairs. You don't think of "y" being "u" with an Umlaut. For you this is a completely seperate letter. Ditto with ÄÖÅ im Swedish and ÆØÅ in Danish (Æ is never thought of as combined A and E).
  - henrikschroder 3y ago
    > I'd say that they are just as much different letters in German No. The German alphabet contains 26 letters, A-Z, plus 4 special letters, ÄÖÜẞ. The Swedish alphabet contains 29 letters, A-ZÅÄÖ.
- pessimizer 3y ago
  I'm not sure if that's a distinction or a difference. "Ñ" is a completely different letter than "N", but that doesn't make "~" less of a tilde.
Symbiote 3y ago
The dots when used in English are called a diaeresis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaeresis_(diacritic) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaeresis_(diacritic) Otherwise, except when discussing German, I think "two dots" is much more common: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_dots_(diacritic) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_dots_(diacritic)
henrikschroder 3y ago
That depends. In English, ¨ is a diacritic mark called diaeresis, which indicates that a vowel is distinct, and shouldn't be diphthongized or dropped: Coöperation, Noël, Brontë. In German, ¨ is a diacritic mark called umlaut, which transforms the vowels A, O, and U into their umlauted versions: Ä, Ö, and Ü. These characters are not distinct letters of the German alphabet, but belong to a special weird in-between class. In Swedish, ¨ is not a diacritic mark, does not have a name, and is simply an integral part of the letters Ä and Ö, which together with Å are distinct letters of the Swedish alphabet. The dots aren't modifiers, they're not optional, Ä is not sort-of-an-A, it's as distinct from A as any other vowel, and its pronunciation is closer to E than A.
- 29083011397778 3y ago
  That's pretty funny - makes me think it's less diaeresis (thanks! TIL) and more akin to the dot over a lower case i or j: A letter with distinct sounds that can't be written without the marking above it.
  - henrikschroder 3y ago
    Yes, that's actually a great example! The dot over i doesn't have a name and isn't a diacritic mark any longer, it's an integral part of the letter. It probably originated as a diacritic mark, though. Ä in Swedish originated as the AE ligature where the E moved upwards and above the A until it became stylized as two dots. In Danish and Norwegian, they instead promoted Æ to a distinct letter. Wikipedia does a great job for example for Ü, distinguishing between U-umlaut, U-diaeresis, and letter-Ü: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9C https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9C
    - hyperdimension 3y ago
      > The dot over i doesn't have a name Well you've just nerd-sniped me. I can't resist adding this bit of hyper-specific knowledge: it is called a tittle.
- draven 3y ago
bjoli 3y ago
Only in languages where they are umlauts. Look at, for example, Ä and Umlaut-A: they have historically been written differently. They were simplified to mean the same thing in handwriting a long time ago, but as recently as in iso-8859-1 they made a conscious decision to merge them. Unicode also makes a difference, but generally recommends the merged character.

ska 3y ago

I think OP's contention was that in Swedish these are not diacritical marks, but different letters.

okamiueru 3y ago
Indeed. The equivalent Norwegian letters are æ/Æ, ø/Ø, å/Å (in the correct order). And you wouldn't call those umlauts either.
Findecanor 3y ago
I think the OP is splitting hairs. I'd say that they are just as much different letters in German, from which the word "Umlaut" comes. One is replaced with the other in word inflections. For instance, the noun "Land" is "Länder" in plural — both in German and Swedish. But what the two dots are not: they are definitely not diaeresis.
- silvestrov 3y ago
  no, it is not splitting hairs. You don't think of "y" being "u" with an Umlaut. For you this is a completely seperate letter. Ditto with ÄÖÅ im Swedish and ÆØÅ in Danish (Æ is never thought of as combined A and E).
- henrikschroder 3y ago
  > I'd say that they are just as much different letters in German No. The German alphabet contains 26 letters, A-Z, plus 4 special letters, ÄÖÜẞ. The Swedish alphabet contains 29 letters, A-ZÅÄÖ.
pessimizer 3y ago
I'm not sure if that's a distinction or a difference. "Ñ" is a completely different letter than "N", but that doesn't make "~" less of a tilde.

Symbiote 3y ago

The dots when used in English are called a diaeresis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaeresis_(diacritic) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaeresis_(diacritic) Otherwise, except when discussing German, I think "two dots" is much more common: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_dots_(diacritic) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_dots_(diacritic)

henrikschroder 3y ago

That depends. In English, ¨ is a diacritic mark called diaeresis, which indicates that a vowel is distinct, and shouldn't be diphthongized or dropped: Coöperation, Noël, Brontë. In German, ¨ is a diacritic mark called umlaut, which transforms the vowels A, O, and U into their umlauted versions: Ä, Ö, and Ü. These characters are not distinct letters of the German alphabet, but belong to a special weird in-between class. In Swedish, ¨ is not a diacritic mark, does not have a name, and is simply an integral part of the letters Ä and Ö, which together with Å are distinct letters of the Swedish alphabet. The dots aren't modifiers, they're not optional, Ä is not sort-of-an-A, it's as distinct from A as any other vowel, and its pronunciation is closer to E than A.

29083011397778 3y ago
That's pretty funny - makes me think it's less diaeresis (thanks! TIL) and more akin to the dot over a lower case i or j: A letter with distinct sounds that can't be written without the marking above it.
- henrikschroder 3y ago
  Yes, that's actually a great example! The dot over i doesn't have a name and isn't a diacritic mark any longer, it's an integral part of the letter. It probably originated as a diacritic mark, though. Ä in Swedish originated as the AE ligature where the E moved upwards and above the A until it became stylized as two dots. In Danish and Norwegian, they instead promoted Æ to a distinct letter. Wikipedia does a great job for example for Ü, distinguishing between U-umlaut, U-diaeresis, and letter-Ü: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9C https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9C
  - hyperdimension 3y ago
    > The dot over i doesn't have a name Well you've just nerd-sniped me. I can't resist adding this bit of hyper-specific knowledge: it is called a tittle.
draven 3y ago

bjoli 3y ago

Only in languages where they are umlauts. Look at, for example, Ä and Umlaut-A: they have historically been written differently. They were simplified to mean the same thing in handwriting a long time ago, but as recently as in iso-8859-1 they made a conscious decision to merge them. Unicode also makes a difference, but generally recommends the merged character.