4 ms·

It is not only that people even here on HN believe that discrimination of black people doesn't happen anymore, but worse there is a vocal group that thinks that

It is not only that people even here on HN believe that discrimination of black people doesn't happen anymore, but worse there is a vocal group that thinks that white men are now the major victims. They quite literally state that white men (mainly if they receive pushback for racist/mysoginist statements) have it as bad as black people in the 60s.

cgio 4y ago
As an external observer of American news, I don’t find it surprising when race is increasingly stressed, occasionally in not directly relevant context. E.g. there was a cnn headline recently along the lines of “Black and Latino man got in the car of White policeman and disappeared” with the races capitalised from source. No matter if the intention is against racism, the capitalisation and emphasis on races does not help from my vantage (and admittedly remote) viewpoint. Now if the story was definitely a racist one it would make sense but I did not get that in the context of the article itself. I think we all tend to victimise ourselves. The people in advantage will do so even more.
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  It's a common but I think unhelpful observation that americans make racism worse by focusing on race more. I see it often in the comments here, people saying things like "why make it about race" or "we should ignore everyone's race." The thing is it was already about race. Even if that cop disappeared those men for completely non-racist reasons (and we pretend their motivation is even knowable in that way), the racial history of american policing is such that it's part of the story anyway. A black person reading the race-sanitized headline is going to immediately think "yeah and I bet I can guess their skin colors too" and on looking into it find out they were right and come to conclusion it was obscured out of intentional complicity. There is no race-neutral way to report on or discuss many things in an american context because those things are not race-neutral. We can certainly wish it were otherwise, but when we try to enforce that fictional neutrality we both obscure and create other problems. The capitalization thing is just part of an ongoing and unsettled reevaluation of what "races" even are, what their boundaries and prerogatives are, how they refer to themselves and how they are to be referred to, etc. I respect your discomfort with it and would point out that probably very few people are happy with the current state of this nomenclature, but that it's almost completely irrelevant to the problems themselves.
  - saghm 4y ago
    > It's a common but I think unhelpful observation that americans make racism worse by focusing on race more. I see it often in the comments here, people saying things like "why make it about race" or "we should ignore everyone's race." > The thing is it was already about race. Even if that cop disappeared those men for completely non-racist reasons (and we pretend their motivation is even knowable in that way), the racial history of american policing is such that it's part of the story anyway. > A black person reading the race-sanitized headline is going to immediately think "yeah and I bet I can guess their skin colors too" and on looking into it find out they were right and come to conclusion it was obscured out of intentional complicity. > There is no race-neutral way to report on or discuss many things in an american context because those things are not race-neutral. We can certainly wish it were otherwise, but when we try to enforce that fictional neutrality we both obscure and create other problems. Unfortunately, that's the entire point; it's not a coincidence that questioning "why make it about race?" is overwhelmingly from people who benefit from the history you mention. It's just another form of the same cognitive dissonance of that much-overused but often apt Upton Sinclair quote: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."
    - craigbarry 4y ago
      Class war disguised as a culture war. The old gits still play the same games. And no I don’t care about ageism; not when the elders hid climate change from the young. Tacit ageism against next generations constantly wrapped up in equivocation and appeals to authority embedded in long dead mens political documents. Generational churn of post war shell shocked paranoids that went stupid drinking lead, huffed leaded gas and other crap before bans on industrial messes needs to go faster
  - StanislavPetrov 4y ago
    >It's a common but I think unhelpful observation that americans make racism worse by focusing on race more. Common, unhelpful, and selective. The whole idea of "race" is arbitrary and meaningless. Ask someone to come up with a specific definition of who qualifies as a member of what "race", and they won't be able to, because it doesn't exist. Obviously we are saddled with the barbaric vestiges of the past, but that doesn't mean that we are forced to carry them on, codify them, and pretend like they have any sort of objective meaning. All the identify fetishists, racialists, and those who insist on codifying the nonsensical racial nonsense from the past are part of the problem, do a disservice to society and prevent us from moving forward.
phs318u 4y ago
Sadly true. You only have to jump across to the thread on Rosalind Franklin to see the crypto-racists out in force.

cgio 4y ago

As an external observer of American news, I don’t find it surprising when race is increasingly stressed, occasionally in not directly relevant context. E.g. there was a cnn headline recently along the lines of “Black and Latino man got in the car of White policeman and disappeared” with the races capitalised from source. No matter if the intention is against racism, the capitalisation and emphasis on races does not help from my vantage (and admittedly remote) viewpoint. Now if the story was definitely a racist one it would make sense but I did not get that in the context of the article itself. I think we all tend to victimise ourselves. The people in advantage will do so even more.

giraffe_lady 4y ago
It's a common but I think unhelpful observation that americans make racism worse by focusing on race more. I see it often in the comments here, people saying things like "why make it about race" or "we should ignore everyone's race." The thing is it was already about race. Even if that cop disappeared those men for completely non-racist reasons (and we pretend their motivation is even knowable in that way), the racial history of american policing is such that it's part of the story anyway. A black person reading the race-sanitized headline is going to immediately think "yeah and I bet I can guess their skin colors too" and on looking into it find out they were right and come to conclusion it was obscured out of intentional complicity. There is no race-neutral way to report on or discuss many things in an american context because those things are not race-neutral. We can certainly wish it were otherwise, but when we try to enforce that fictional neutrality we both obscure and create other problems. The capitalization thing is just part of an ongoing and unsettled reevaluation of what "races" even are, what their boundaries and prerogatives are, how they refer to themselves and how they are to be referred to, etc. I respect your discomfort with it and would point out that probably very few people are happy with the current state of this nomenclature, but that it's almost completely irrelevant to the problems themselves.
- saghm 4y ago
  > It's a common but I think unhelpful observation that americans make racism worse by focusing on race more. I see it often in the comments here, people saying things like "why make it about race" or "we should ignore everyone's race." > The thing is it was already about race. Even if that cop disappeared those men for completely non-racist reasons (and we pretend their motivation is even knowable in that way), the racial history of american policing is such that it's part of the story anyway. > A black person reading the race-sanitized headline is going to immediately think "yeah and I bet I can guess their skin colors too" and on looking into it find out they were right and come to conclusion it was obscured out of intentional complicity. > There is no race-neutral way to report on or discuss many things in an american context because those things are not race-neutral. We can certainly wish it were otherwise, but when we try to enforce that fictional neutrality we both obscure and create other problems. Unfortunately, that's the entire point; it's not a coincidence that questioning "why make it about race?" is overwhelmingly from people who benefit from the history you mention. It's just another form of the same cognitive dissonance of that much-overused but often apt Upton Sinclair quote: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."
  - craigbarry 4y ago
    Class war disguised as a culture war. The old gits still play the same games. And no I don’t care about ageism; not when the elders hid climate change from the young. Tacit ageism against next generations constantly wrapped up in equivocation and appeals to authority embedded in long dead mens political documents. Generational churn of post war shell shocked paranoids that went stupid drinking lead, huffed leaded gas and other crap before bans on industrial messes needs to go faster
- StanislavPetrov 4y ago
  >It's a common but I think unhelpful observation that americans make racism worse by focusing on race more. Common, unhelpful, and selective. The whole idea of "race" is arbitrary and meaningless. Ask someone to come up with a specific definition of who qualifies as a member of what "race", and they won't be able to, because it doesn't exist. Obviously we are saddled with the barbaric vestiges of the past, but that doesn't mean that we are forced to carry them on, codify them, and pretend like they have any sort of objective meaning. All the identify fetishists, racialists, and those who insist on codifying the nonsensical racial nonsense from the past are part of the problem, do a disservice to society and prevent us from moving forward.

phs318u 4y ago

Sadly true. You only have to jump across to the thread on Rosalind Franklin to see the crypto-racists out in force.