4 ms·

Browsers could just be browsers if people paid for them. But they don't. If you're not paying for the product, you are the product.

comte7092 4y ago
Even paid products do this kind of stuff these days. At the end of the day, only legal requirements are going to curtail this type of behavior.
- MathMonkeyMan 4y ago
  > If you're not paying for the product, you are the product. > Even paid products do this kind of stuff these days. Yes, if you pay for the product, then not only are you still the product, but you're a sucker as well. It's not quite that stark, but I don't see why a company would truly change its business model just because they charge a fee. It's too tempting to "do something with all this data," i.e. treat all consumer software as spyware.
Spivak 4y ago
I wish this phrase would die. You're the product either way. Company is either going to take advantage of the revenue stream or not regardless of whether you also pay for it. "You're always the product and willingness and ability to pay for a nonessential service makes your disposable income an even juicer target to advertisers."
ok_dad 4y ago
Show me a browser I can pay for that isn't full of bloatware crap and I'll pay for it. I've spent $15 this week alone on software, some of it I just donated money because it was useful once. I am the wrong commenter here to be telling "you're not paying", because I literally pay for all/most of the services and software I use, though I do understand I'm an outlier to some degree.
- password4321 4y ago
  https://www.patreon.com/posts/ladybird-truly-68649206 https://www.patreon.com/posts/ladybird-truly-68649206
- tokamak-teapot 4y ago
  Safari? I don’t know what counts as ‘this bloatware crap’ but if you haven’t looked into it perhaps it could meet your definition.
  - ok_dad 4y ago
    Actually, I just started using Safari at home recently, and I love it. Most Apple stuff, while locked down to some extent, seems to give me the freedom to actually be productive and do the tasks I need to do pretty easily. Sure, you have to adopt the "Apple Way" and use their software in somewhat the way that they designed it to be used, but for the most part it's really flexible and able to be used to achieve all of my goals in a simple way, without much fuss. Windows is laughable today and Linux is open and free but also has a minimal level of "fuss" you need to do in order to keep it working and get new software working. With MacOS I find I have to do almost zero maintenance and most of my time is productive. I'm going to switch my work PC to Mac as well as soon as this pile of silicon I'm using dies.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      Safari in “I’m a journalist and gonna die” mode (lockdown?) is surprisingly usable and very hardened against tracking.
  - encryptluks2 4y ago
    [dead]
  - nottorp 4y ago
    Unfortunately Safari cannot run uBlock Origin.
- CubsFan1060 4y ago
Nullabillity 4y ago
People do pay for Windows, which Edge is a part of. How's that going for you?
- toast0 4y ago
  Microsoft hasn't been serious about charging users for Windows in a while. Free upgrades to Windows 10, free access to ISOs or tools to generate ISOs, and the penalty for an unlicensed install is no desktop background and a small watermark if you can't manage to trick windows into thinking it's licensed. Yes, OEMs pay for Windows; probably businesses pay for Windows. It's pretty clear they've gone to an ad-supported model whether they're honest about it or not. And of course, paying for the product doesn't mean they won't suplement invoice revenue with advertising revenue.
  - alpaca128 4y ago
    > no desktop background Last time I checked you could still just set the wallpaper via the context menu. It only locks the appearance settings.
tomatocracy 4y ago
I'm pretty sure I had to pay for Windows in order to get Edge.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
flangola7 4y ago
But I did pay. Edge is a Windows browser and Windows is very not free.
- jefftk 4y ago
  Edge is cross platform: Windows, Mac, Linux, iOS, Android https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/edge/download https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/edge/download
ssnistfajen 4y ago
The plethora of FOSS browsers bundled in various Linux distros beg to differ.
Tangurena2 4y ago
In the beginning, they did cost money. Netscape offered a free version for home viewers (but charged companies - NetWare came with a user license). Microsoft sold a $29 "Plus Pack" for Windows that included Internet Explorer. That changed when Bill Gates decided to "steal Netscape's oxygen" and become the evil overlord that most people remember him as.
- hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
  > and become the evil overlord that most people remember him as. He wasn't the nicest guy much earlier than that.[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AARD_code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AARD_code
rhaway84773 4y ago
People pay for Windows, MacOS iOS and Android based devices. Presumably they’re also paying for the software that runs those devices, ie the OS. And does anyone think that a web browser is not a core part of an OS today? Certainly MS doesn’t. So yeah, MS is being paid for their browser. But a trillion dollar valuation is simply not enough.
- aembleton 4y ago
  > Presumably they’re also paying for the software that runs those devices Not on Android. AOSP is free, but if you want to ship the play store then you have to also include the other Google apps. It is the Google data harvesting and advertising that pays for Android.
OkayPhysicist 4y ago
Companies are perfectly happy to sell you down the river to make a quick buck, too. Proprietary software cannot be trusted, because for-profit institutions cannot be trusted. They aren't in the business of serving you, they're in the business of chasing ever increasing profits. Maybe those goals align at some point, but corporations' alignment drift makes AI look downright peachy.

comte7092 4y ago

Even paid products do this kind of stuff these days. At the end of the day, only legal requirements are going to curtail this type of behavior.

MathMonkeyMan 4y ago
> If you're not paying for the product, you are the product. > Even paid products do this kind of stuff these days. Yes, if you pay for the product, then not only are you still the product, but you're a sucker as well. It's not quite that stark, but I don't see why a company would truly change its business model just because they charge a fee. It's too tempting to "do something with all this data," i.e. treat all consumer software as spyware.

Spivak 4y ago

I wish this phrase would die. You're the product either way. Company is either going to take advantage of the revenue stream or not regardless of whether you also pay for it. "You're always the product and willingness and ability to pay for a nonessential service makes your disposable income an even juicer target to advertisers."

ok_dad 4y ago

Show me a browser I can pay for that isn't full of bloatware crap and I'll pay for it. I've spent $15 this week alone on software, some of it I just donated money because it was useful once. I am the wrong commenter here to be telling "you're not paying", because I literally pay for all/most of the services and software I use, though I do understand I'm an outlier to some degree.

password4321 4y ago
https://www.patreon.com/posts/ladybird-truly-68649206 https://www.patreon.com/posts/ladybird-truly-68649206
tokamak-teapot 4y ago
Safari? I don’t know what counts as ‘this bloatware crap’ but if you haven’t looked into it perhaps it could meet your definition.
- ok_dad 4y ago
  Actually, I just started using Safari at home recently, and I love it. Most Apple stuff, while locked down to some extent, seems to give me the freedom to actually be productive and do the tasks I need to do pretty easily. Sure, you have to adopt the "Apple Way" and use their software in somewhat the way that they designed it to be used, but for the most part it's really flexible and able to be used to achieve all of my goals in a simple way, without much fuss. Windows is laughable today and Linux is open and free but also has a minimal level of "fuss" you need to do in order to keep it working and get new software working. With MacOS I find I have to do almost zero maintenance and most of my time is productive. I'm going to switch my work PC to Mac as well as soon as this pile of silicon I'm using dies.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Safari in “I’m a journalist and gonna die” mode (lockdown?) is surprisingly usable and very hardened against tracking.
- encryptluks2 4y ago
  [dead]
- nottorp 4y ago
  Unfortunately Safari cannot run uBlock Origin.
CubsFan1060 4y ago

Nullabillity 4y ago

People do pay for Windows, which Edge is a part of. How's that going for you?

toast0 4y ago
Microsoft hasn't been serious about charging users for Windows in a while. Free upgrades to Windows 10, free access to ISOs or tools to generate ISOs, and the penalty for an unlicensed install is no desktop background and a small watermark if you can't manage to trick windows into thinking it's licensed. Yes, OEMs pay for Windows; probably businesses pay for Windows. It's pretty clear they've gone to an ad-supported model whether they're honest about it or not. And of course, paying for the product doesn't mean they won't suplement invoice revenue with advertising revenue.
- alpaca128 4y ago
  > no desktop background Last time I checked you could still just set the wallpaper via the context menu. It only locks the appearance settings.

tomatocracy 4y ago

I'm pretty sure I had to pay for Windows in order to get Edge.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

flangola7 4y ago

But I did pay. Edge is a Windows browser and Windows is very not free.

jefftk 4y ago
Edge is cross platform: Windows, Mac, Linux, iOS, Android https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/edge/download https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/edge/download

ssnistfajen 4y ago

The plethora of FOSS browsers bundled in various Linux distros beg to differ.

Tangurena2 4y ago

In the beginning, they did cost money. Netscape offered a free version for home viewers (but charged companies - NetWare came with a user license). Microsoft sold a $29 "Plus Pack" for Windows that included Internet Explorer. That changed when Bill Gates decided to "steal Netscape's oxygen" and become the evil overlord that most people remember him as.

hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
> and become the evil overlord that most people remember him as. He wasn't the nicest guy much earlier than that.[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AARD_code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AARD_code

rhaway84773 4y ago

People pay for Windows, MacOS iOS and Android based devices. Presumably they’re also paying for the software that runs those devices, ie the OS. And does anyone think that a web browser is not a core part of an OS today? Certainly MS doesn’t. So yeah, MS is being paid for their browser. But a trillion dollar valuation is simply not enough.

aembleton 4y ago
> Presumably they’re also paying for the software that runs those devices Not on Android. AOSP is free, but if you want to ship the play store then you have to also include the other Google apps. It is the Google data harvesting and advertising that pays for Android.

OkayPhysicist 4y ago

Companies are perfectly happy to sell you down the river to make a quick buck, too. Proprietary software cannot be trusted, because for-profit institutions cannot be trusted. They aren't in the business of serving you, they're in the business of chasing ever increasing profits. Maybe those goals align at some point, but corporations' alignment drift makes AI look downright peachy.