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If we're going to save E2EE (End to End Encryption), then we seriously need to propose real and effective alternative solutions that don't involve putting backd

If we're going to save E2EE (End to End Encryption), then we seriously need to propose real and effective alternative solutions that don't involve putting backdoors in encryption. If these problems continue to proliferate, society at large is not going to tolerate it, and western governments will have all the justification they need to backdoor encryption. Once the government/law enforcement has backdoors in encryption, it's game over at that point, we'll never be able to undo any such legislation. Anybody who opposes will likely be labeled as potential criminals to silence their opposition. The first most obvious step is to ensure it's easy to report illegal activity, and make it super obvious how to do so, especially for children and teens. The party receiving the messages should be able to voluntarily report them for potentially illegal content or illegal activity. Part of me might be okay with client side scanning THAT DOES NOT REPORT ANYTHING AUTOMATICALLY! The option to report content should be my choice and completely voluntary. By all means warn/alert me, but do NOT upload any of my encrypted messages without my consent. I don't care how confident the client side scanning may be, because the AI models used for scanning will produce countless false positives. When any message could be reported virtually at random, this makes E2EE effectively meaningless. Again, we seriously need to find alternate solutions to these problems and soon, because our fundamental rights to privacy and security have never been at greater risk than they are today.

teddyh 3y ago
> If these problems continue to proliferate, society at large is not going to tolerate it You mean if society is convinced that these problems continue to proliferate. And that’s the problem. Whether or not these specific problems actually exist and are widespread enough, they can always find something else to pretend to be upset about, and yell to reporters, who love to report on a good crisis. The public is then convinced that some problem or other is serious enough to bend the democratic and free speech principles “just a little, for this special case”, and then on to the next time, where it will all repeat again. Note that this has nothing to do with CSAM specifically, it’s just used as the latest scary thing, regardless if it is true or not. This has been called the “Four Horsemen of the Infocalypse”¹, but the general phenomenon is much older than that; witch trials have always existed in one form or another, whether they are called “witches” or not. My point is that solving the CSAM problem will change absolutely nothing to save E2EE. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Infocalypse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Infocalyp...
- waselighis 3y ago
  You may be right, but that's not the point. For some reason, I've been seeing many more stories about CSAM and child sex trafficking pop up in the last few weeks. These stories do suggest that the problem is getting worse, wherein it seems to be growing about 30% every year (however "growth" may be defined). But it doesn't matter how prolific these crimes may be in reality, all that matters is the public's perception of these problems. If people aren't convinced that there are other viable solutions, then the legislators win and say goodbye to E2EE.
  - teddyh 3y ago
    > For some reason, I've been seeing many more stories […] pop up in the last few weeks. These stories do suggest that the problem is getting worse No they don’t. There being more stories simply suggest that reporters and news sites have nothing better to write about, and that politicians (and their sponsors) want to spread the idea that the problem is large, presumably in order to restrict people’s privacy unimpeded. If something (like CSAM, or terrorism, etc.) is a big problem, the relevant authorities should handle it, not the news media. If politicians wanted such a problem to be handled, they could get the police and other law enforcement agencies to do it. If politicians instead spread panic via the press, it suggests that what they want is something else entirely.
    - waselighis 3y ago
      > No they don’t. Umm, yes they do. I'm not claiming these stories to be factual or correct, but the news being reported is that the number of websites selling CSAM, the number of reports of grooming/trafficking they receive, and other factors has been growing by about 30% each year for the last few years. They suggest the growth is likely a result of the pandemic, among other factors. > If something (like CSAM, or terrorism, etc.) is a big problem, the relevant authorities should handle it, not the news media. If CSAM and child sex trafficking is indeed getting worse, and our government isn't doing enough about it, why shouldn't the news media report on it? The whole point of having a free press is to have an informed public that influences government policy. It would be irresponsible of the news media to not report on such problems (assuming the problem is getting worse and it's not just a ploy to convince us to give up our privacy and security). If you have evidence to the contrary (the problem isn't really getting worse), please do share. But being willfully ignorant and denying the problem exists isn't helping anybody.

teddyh 3y ago

> If these problems continue to proliferate, society at large is not going to tolerate it You mean if society is convinced that these problems continue to proliferate. And that’s the problem. Whether or not these specific problems actually exist and are widespread enough, they can always find something else to pretend to be upset about, and yell to reporters, who love to report on a good crisis. The public is then convinced that some problem or other is serious enough to bend the democratic and free speech principles “just a little, for this special case”, and then on to the next time, where it will all repeat again. Note that this has nothing to do with CSAM specifically, it’s just used as the latest scary thing, regardless if it is true or not. This has been called the “Four Horsemen of the Infocalypse”¹, but the general phenomenon is much older than that; witch trials have always existed in one form or another, whether they are called “witches” or not. My point is that solving the CSAM problem will change absolutely nothing to save E2EE. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Infocalypse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Infocalyp...

waselighis 3y ago
You may be right, but that's not the point. For some reason, I've been seeing many more stories about CSAM and child sex trafficking pop up in the last few weeks. These stories do suggest that the problem is getting worse, wherein it seems to be growing about 30% every year (however "growth" may be defined). But it doesn't matter how prolific these crimes may be in reality, all that matters is the public's perception of these problems. If people aren't convinced that there are other viable solutions, then the legislators win and say goodbye to E2EE.
- teddyh 3y ago
  > For some reason, I've been seeing many more stories […] pop up in the last few weeks. These stories do suggest that the problem is getting worse No they don’t. There being more stories simply suggest that reporters and news sites have nothing better to write about, and that politicians (and their sponsors) want to spread the idea that the problem is large, presumably in order to restrict people’s privacy unimpeded. If something (like CSAM, or terrorism, etc.) is a big problem, the relevant authorities should handle it, not the news media. If politicians wanted such a problem to be handled, they could get the police and other law enforcement agencies to do it. If politicians instead spread panic via the press, it suggests that what they want is something else entirely.
  - waselighis 3y ago
    > No they don’t. Umm, yes they do. I'm not claiming these stories to be factual or correct, but the news being reported is that the number of websites selling CSAM, the number of reports of grooming/trafficking they receive, and other factors has been growing by about 30% each year for the last few years. They suggest the growth is likely a result of the pandemic, among other factors. > If something (like CSAM, or terrorism, etc.) is a big problem, the relevant authorities should handle it, not the news media. If CSAM and child sex trafficking is indeed getting worse, and our government isn't doing enough about it, why shouldn't the news media report on it? The whole point of having a free press is to have an informed public that influences government policy. It would be irresponsible of the news media to not report on such problems (assuming the problem is getting worse and it's not just a ploy to convince us to give up our privacy and security). If you have evidence to the contrary (the problem isn't really getting worse), please do share. But being willfully ignorant and denying the problem exists isn't helping anybody.