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Tell us more about the form of farming that contains the high energy consumption shortcoming listed above. As a crop farmer, even a comparatively small reductio

Tell us more about the form of farming that contains the high energy consumption shortcoming listed above. As a crop farmer, even a comparatively small reduction in energy availability from a cloudy year can cause a noticeable impact on yields. I wonder what we would eat if we saw a dramatic decline in available energy.

CuriouslyC 3y ago
He's probably referring to one of a variety of permaculture setups that integrates animals and a food forest into their operation. Carbon zero and super cheap to maintain, but challenging to setup and harder to sell some of the products.
- randomdata 3y ago
  Still incredibly energy intensive. I honestly cannot think of any food that isn't, at least indirectly if not directly, so I want to know more about these farming practices that can contain the energy need.
  - CuriouslyC 3y ago
    There is a spectrum of permaculture that ranges from low yield totally self managing systems where you basically hunt and forage, to high yield partially automated systems that almost look like slick modern farms. Those low yield systems can still be very productive, but you have to go get it, so it's obviously more of a subsistence farmer or agritourism thing.
    - randomdata 3y ago
      None of this addresses the intense energy requirements. Even the self-managed permacultures would have little chance of survival if the bulk of the energy received was removed.
      - myshpa 3y ago
        IMHO not true (unless you're talking about sun's energy). Just few examples: https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/what-is-permaculture-food-forests https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/what-is-permaculture-f... https://www.permaculturenews.org/2014/07/15/fukuokas-food-forest/ https://www.permaculturenews.org/2014/07/15/fukuokas-food-fo... https://returntonow.net/2018/08/01/the-amazon-is-a-man-made-food-forest-researchers-discover/ https://returntonow.net/2018/08/01/the-amazon-is-a-man-made-... https://news.mongabay.com/2020/07/in-syntropic-agriculture-farmers-stop-fighting-nature-and-learn-to-embrace-it/ https://news.mongabay.com/2020/07/in-syntropic-agriculture-f... https://www.microfarmguide.com/syntropic-farming/ https://www.microfarmguide.com/syntropic-farming/
        randomdata 3y ago
        > unless you're talking about sun's energy What other source of energy results in a decline in plant yields when clouds obscure the energy output? Of course we're talking about the sun. Is there some reason we want to keep avoiding the original question while sharing nothing that farmers, of which you know I am from the same comment, haven't already heard of a million times before? This is like the tech equivalent of someone asking how to prove P=NP and, in return, getting: Have you heard of microservices?
        myshpa 3y ago
        > Tell us more about the form of farming that contains the high energy consumption shortcoming listed above ... even a comparatively small reduction in energy availability from a cloudy year can cause a noticeable impact on yields. Sorry, I may have some trouble getting your meaning - maybe it's too late here. Are you trying to imply that my point above (High energy consumption) is somehow related to sun's energy, or that all crops need sun to grow (that would be trolling). - Feed production: Growing crops for animal feed requires energy for cultivation, irrigation, and the production of synthetic fertilizers and pesticides. Additionally, energy is needed to harvest, transport, and process these crops into feed for livestock. - Livestock management: Maintaining the well-being of animals in farms demands energy for heating, cooling, and lighting of barns and other facilities, as well as for powering equipment used for feeding, cleaning, and waste management. - Transportation: Energy is required for transporting animals to and from farms, feedlots, and slaughterhouses. This includes the transportation of feed, water, and other supplies to farms, as well as the transportation of animal products to processing plants and markets. - Processing and packaging: The slaughter, processing, and packaging of animal products also consume energy. This includes the operation of slaughterhouses and processing plants, refrigeration, and the production of packaging materials. - Refrigeration and storage: Animal products typically need to be stored at low temperatures to prevent spoilage. Energy is consumed in maintaining refrigeration units at the necessary temperature both during transportation and storage at processing facilities, warehouses, and retail outlets. - If the world adopted a plant-based diet we would reduce global agricultural land use from 4 to 1 billion hectares (https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets) > I wonder what we would eat if we saw a dramatic decline in available energy Cloudy skies, or maybe volcano eruptions darkening the sky for months/years, or snow in summer? Most would starve, i suppose. What we would eat? Do you mean grow? Mushrooms, maybe? If I'm still off, could you reformulate your question?
- stametseater 3y ago
  > permaculture setups that integrates animals and a food forest into their operation. This is a premise from a bygone era. Replace modern farming with integrated permaculture and billions will starve. Such farming techniques only persist in developed countries today as niche activities to amuse yuppies who want to buy some connection to nature at the grocery store.
  - CuriouslyC 3y ago
    Great idea. We'll just keep trashing our planet until it can't support our outsized population, then we'll destroy each other trying not to starve.
    - stametseater 3y ago
      Food instability will lead to mass starvation, which in turn will lead to wars. Wars will trash this planet more surely than modern mechanized farming.
      - CuriouslyC 3y ago
        I think you missed the part where modern mechanized farming is going to destroy fertility to the point that we have food instability anyhow, which was my original point. The answer is to rethink how we feed our populations, but by all means keep kicking the doomsday can down the line without a plan.

CuriouslyC 3y ago

He's probably referring to one of a variety of permaculture setups that integrates animals and a food forest into their operation. Carbon zero and super cheap to maintain, but challenging to setup and harder to sell some of the products.

randomdata 3y ago
Still incredibly energy intensive. I honestly cannot think of any food that isn't, at least indirectly if not directly, so I want to know more about these farming practices that can contain the energy need.
- CuriouslyC 3y ago
  There is a spectrum of permaculture that ranges from low yield totally self managing systems where you basically hunt and forage, to high yield partially automated systems that almost look like slick modern farms. Those low yield systems can still be very productive, but you have to go get it, so it's obviously more of a subsistence farmer or agritourism thing.
  - randomdata 3y ago
    None of this addresses the intense energy requirements. Even the self-managed permacultures would have little chance of survival if the bulk of the energy received was removed.
    - myshpa 3y ago
      IMHO not true (unless you're talking about sun's energy). Just few examples: https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/what-is-permaculture-food-forests https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/what-is-permaculture-f... https://www.permaculturenews.org/2014/07/15/fukuokas-food-forest/ https://www.permaculturenews.org/2014/07/15/fukuokas-food-fo... https://returntonow.net/2018/08/01/the-amazon-is-a-man-made-food-forest-researchers-discover/ https://returntonow.net/2018/08/01/the-amazon-is-a-man-made-... https://news.mongabay.com/2020/07/in-syntropic-agriculture-farmers-stop-fighting-nature-and-learn-to-embrace-it/ https://news.mongabay.com/2020/07/in-syntropic-agriculture-f... https://www.microfarmguide.com/syntropic-farming/ https://www.microfarmguide.com/syntropic-farming/
      - randomdata 3y ago
        > unless you're talking about sun's energy What other source of energy results in a decline in plant yields when clouds obscure the energy output? Of course we're talking about the sun. Is there some reason we want to keep avoiding the original question while sharing nothing that farmers, of which you know I am from the same comment, haven't already heard of a million times before? This is like the tech equivalent of someone asking how to prove P=NP and, in return, getting: Have you heard of microservices?
        myshpa 3y ago
        > Tell us more about the form of farming that contains the high energy consumption shortcoming listed above ... even a comparatively small reduction in energy availability from a cloudy year can cause a noticeable impact on yields. Sorry, I may have some trouble getting your meaning - maybe it's too late here. Are you trying to imply that my point above (High energy consumption) is somehow related to sun's energy, or that all crops need sun to grow (that would be trolling). - Feed production: Growing crops for animal feed requires energy for cultivation, irrigation, and the production of synthetic fertilizers and pesticides. Additionally, energy is needed to harvest, transport, and process these crops into feed for livestock. - Livestock management: Maintaining the well-being of animals in farms demands energy for heating, cooling, and lighting of barns and other facilities, as well as for powering equipment used for feeding, cleaning, and waste management. - Transportation: Energy is required for transporting animals to and from farms, feedlots, and slaughterhouses. This includes the transportation of feed, water, and other supplies to farms, as well as the transportation of animal products to processing plants and markets. - Processing and packaging: The slaughter, processing, and packaging of animal products also consume energy. This includes the operation of slaughterhouses and processing plants, refrigeration, and the production of packaging materials. - Refrigeration and storage: Animal products typically need to be stored at low temperatures to prevent spoilage. Energy is consumed in maintaining refrigeration units at the necessary temperature both during transportation and storage at processing facilities, warehouses, and retail outlets. - If the world adopted a plant-based diet we would reduce global agricultural land use from 4 to 1 billion hectares (https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets) > I wonder what we would eat if we saw a dramatic decline in available energy Cloudy skies, or maybe volcano eruptions darkening the sky for months/years, or snow in summer? Most would starve, i suppose. What we would eat? Do you mean grow? Mushrooms, maybe? If I'm still off, could you reformulate your question?
stametseater 3y ago
> permaculture setups that integrates animals and a food forest into their operation. This is a premise from a bygone era. Replace modern farming with integrated permaculture and billions will starve. Such farming techniques only persist in developed countries today as niche activities to amuse yuppies who want to buy some connection to nature at the grocery store.
- CuriouslyC 3y ago
  Great idea. We'll just keep trashing our planet until it can't support our outsized population, then we'll destroy each other trying not to starve.
  - stametseater 3y ago
    Food instability will lead to mass starvation, which in turn will lead to wars. Wars will trash this planet more surely than modern mechanized farming.
    - CuriouslyC 3y ago
      I think you missed the part where modern mechanized farming is going to destroy fertility to the point that we have food instability anyhow, which was my original point. The answer is to rethink how we feed our populations, but by all means keep kicking the doomsday can down the line without a plan.