12 ms·

PaperKarma - take a photo, eliminate junk mail

148 points by calvin 15y ago

camtarn 15y ago
The site could use a little more explanation. The app store page reveals that behind the scenes, there's a database of junk mail logos mapped to the unsubscribe page/contract details for each piece of mail, and taking a photo causes an unsubscribe request to be sent (with unrecognized junk mail added to a queue to be investigated). That's an awesome idea :) It's also available for Android, which the site doesn't make clear (I left the site thinking "pity it's only on iOS", and only realised when i hit "get the app" to see if the app page had more detail). Finally, neither the site nor the app page says whether this works outside the US - I'm assuming it's US-only?
- joshu 15y ago
  Agreed. They could also have a blog on how to stop paperspam and get a bunch of traffic for marketing their app. Also a tech blog (how does the image detection work?) etc.
- smortaz 15y ago
  Cofounder here... camtarn - you're quite right & thanks for confirming our hunches. Will update the site during the next couple of days (UI & text). thx.
  - camtarn 15y ago
    Sweet :) I'd been wondering if it was a mobile site issue (should probably have pointed out that I was browsing from my Android phone, oops.) Have now read your blog post, and am really wishing it was available in the UK now - the mechanism of getting something through your door, taking a photo, and being assured that you won't get any more is amazing... like a 'flag as spam' link for physical items. Very nicely done!
    - alexchamberlain 15y ago
      Not sure we've got the same laws in the UK that make a provision for you to contact individual companies requesting removal from their lists. Can't you just ask Royal Mail to stop it?
    - DanBC 15y ago
      In England you can stop anything addresses to you. You start by registering with the Mail Preference Service (while you're there register all phones with telephone preference service). That takes a few weeks but should stop most things. Then you contact the Royal Mail and opt out for door to door. Which stops unaddressed mail delivered by Royal Mail. One important difference between US and UK is that anyone can stuff things through a UK letterbox, but the US mailcan things are protected and only us postal service can put things in them. I agree this service is really neat and would be very popular. Perhaps if they had a way of telling them that you've opted out and this particular bit of mail still came, and then they could handle the complaints? (http://www.stopjunkmail.org.uk/guide/door_to_door_opt_out.php http://www.stopjunkmail.org.uk/guide/door_to_door_opt_out.ph...)
      - camtarn 15y ago
        Ah-hah! I need to go that then :) Thanks for the tip!
- anigbrowl 15y ago
  What? Unless they've changed it in the last few minutes, there's an android logo smack in the middle of the page.
  - abscondment 15y ago
    Other co-founder here- The logos weren't shown on mobile devices up until a few moments ago. Now they're visible everywhere.
- jgeerts 15y ago
  Awesome idea, but it won't work for some magazines, certainly at the start. Most spam will go unrecognized or am I wrong?
  - smortaz 15y ago
    Thx jgeerts - essentially junk mail can be put into to two broad categories: ones for which your name appears on a "list" somewhere & ones that are carpet bombed across zip codes/routes. The former has a pretty decent chance -- pretty high with reputable companies, esp mags/catalogs/credit cards/etc. The latter, it's case by case. Some honor it (eg Valpak), some have no way of suppressing you. In either case we provide you Sender info (click on the company tab) w information in case you want to give them a piece of your mind :).
rplnt 15y ago
Those bullets showing at which "frame" are you. You can't switch between them manually which makes them kind of pointless. I couldn't read what I want and it took me some time to read through all of it. Also, second and third bullet have the same text. When the photo changed it made me read it again. After reading through I still knew nothing. Market description was much more informative. PS: It should be geographically blocked on markets (is it possible?) as I guess it only works in USA
- smortaz 15y ago
  Feedback taken to heart rpint - changes coming. thx.
jazzychad 15y ago
This is a great idea, but as a paranoid privacy nut I'm a little hesitant to fork over my info to a company I don't really know. The potential upside is so tempting, though. Has anyone had experience with this app yet?
- masonlee 15y ago
  I agree that some prominent privacy statements would be very helpful given that the target audience hates being targeted for junk mail.
- smortaz 15y ago
  jazzychat we're both extremely privacy conscious individuals and from day one pledged our own version of Do No Evil. In fact, during sign up, we ask for minimal info to get the unsubscribes processed: ie name & address -- which by the way the junk mailers /already have/ since they're sending you stuff. Beyond that, some companies require your email address. We don't give them out. We supply a proxied email to ensure they dont get anything beyond what they have already. Hope this helps... Our blog has a bit more info: http://www.paperkarma.com/blog/ http://www.paperkarma.com/blog/ edit: grammar - it's 2am & brain is running on one core in low power mode...
  - ajays 15y ago
    " which by the way the junk mailers /already have/ since they're sending you stuff. " Not necessarily. A lot of times junk mail is directed to just the address, and not the resident. You can tell that by the "To" line, which will say "Current resident" or "resident". They pay the USPS to carpet bomb each and every mailbox with their catalog. This service won't be able to do much about that.
    - smortaz 15y ago
      This is valid criticism & mostly true. Note that for most zip code or route delivered junk mail, they'll be marked as AutoFail internally & show up on your phone under the "Failed" tab. However, we'll provide you company info so you call/write the company yourself if you choose too. I say mostly true, because many companies, such as Valpak, pseudo carpet bomb -- they many not have your name, but in order to remove you from their list (and they do!), they require full name & address.
mvanveen 15y ago
This seems like a really cool idea that I'd like to try, except I have no idea how taking a picture will do anything for anyone. Can you please elaborate or provide some explanation so I can understand? Thanks!
- smortaz 15y ago
  mvanveen, here's a link to our blog post which goes into a little more detail: http://www.paperkarma.com/blog/ http://www.paperkarma.com/blog/ In short, we don't do anything that you couldn't do yourself... we just make it a tad bit less painful. The general pipeline is this: scans come in, they get processed (human/OCR), the company is looked up, request to unsubscribe is sent, your phone is updated. In 2 months we follow up with you to make sure they honored the request. If not, we'll follow up with them on your behalf (by our lawyer - FTC FTW). The app basically provides convenience. We've just spent a year building up a database of who manages customer lists at what company, who the privacy officer is, whether they have customer suppression lists, etc. That's where rubber & asphalt really meet. As with each scan that comes in the DB improves. *OCR is experimental: mixed results. Hope this helps! edit:formatting
  - itmag 15y ago
    Would be interesting to hear how you scale a semi-automated business like that?
  - Terretta 15y ago
    I get junk mail to a PO Box and two street addresses. Most of our junk mail is my SO's name, some of it's in mine. When I subscribe to a magazine, I sometimes use a different middle initial, which tells me who sells my address. AFAIK, none of them have our phone numbers. How does this work for varying names in the household and multiple addresses? We receive 8 inches of junk mail every two weeks, mostly catalogs and CC offers, so can't wait to try this once I know how I can use it for our situation.
anigbrowl 15y ago
Personally, I found it blindingly obvious and look forward to trying it tomorrow. If it works I will give this company all my money (well not literally you understand, but I hate paper junk mail with a passion and I hate the USPS management for insisting that it's the mainstay of their economic planning...idiots). This is made of win as far as I am concerned - which probably means it's a smallish market, but hopefully large enough to make a profit from. Which brings me to my question: I can see what the consumer benefit is immediately, but what's the business model if not large-scale group analytics? Will advertising/marketing firms pay to understand what sort of customers they do not connect with?
- smortaz 15y ago
  Thanks anigbrowl... your comment is very inspiring! Re Biz model: priority one is getting enough of a user base so we have a ticket to the dance. After that there are several possibilities, some of which are implemented already, but not activated: 1. N free scan per month, in app purchase for more for some $. or $/year. 2. some non-obnoxious ads, esp for compliant companies that honor unsubscribe requests 3. PK is really about mailbox management: get what you want & only what you want -- and push as much as possible toward digital versions. eg: I love Costco. But i don't want receive their catalog & kill trees. I rather PK -- with my explicit permission/opt in -- sign me up to receive E-coupons or a digital version of the Cotsco Shopper. At the end of the month when I visit Costco I just grab my E-coupons or read their catalog on my iPad... In summary: we save Costco printing/delivery costs & provide them with an opt-in customer & charge Costco: win/win. Ideally we'd like to push for #3 & keep the app free. Hope this helps! s
  - anigbrowl 15y ago
    That's useful to know. We just bought a house and are in mid-move (some renovations still going on) and I have been fascinated to see how junk mail companies (ab)use prublic records to extend their reach. I look forward to trying the service.
  - aridiculous 15y ago
    My first thoughts about monetization: 1) allow people to sign up for catalogs too. I know that sounds insane to you, but I think a lot of people woul like a place to go to get stuff from stores and categories they like. That's easily monetized with the vendors themselves as part of their customer acquisition cost. 2) Even if you just stuck to removing from lists, you're actually providing value to the the direct mailers. They have one less printing and postage item cost that would have either been useless or pissed someone off. That could be over a dollar per household saved with each mailing.
kapilkale 15y ago
Great idea. IMO the tagline on the HN post is far more effective than the one on the site. I'd explain this to a friend as "Take a picture of your junk mail, and this app automatically unsubscribes you from it". Things like "save the earth" confuse me. A description of how you actually unsubscribe would be helpful too, for the curious and the skeptical. "We automatically contact the junk-mailer for you and have you removed from their subscriber list."
- smortaz 15y ago
  This is why I love HN. Great advice & to the point :). We actually experimented with various msgs & lots of people resonated with the Environmental angle. Here are some mind numbing stats: 1. Over 100,000,000,000 pieces of junk mail per year sent in the US 2. 18 pieces of junk mail for 1 that you actually care about 3. Several -months- of your life spent processing junk mail (!) 4. 100s of thousands of dollars spent by cities (ie, your tax money) on post processing, landfills, etc. & Nevermind the carbon footprint from manufacturing, processing & delivery of junk mail... re Description: check! Cheers, s
  - blauwbilgorgel 15y ago
    I had no clue what the app did untill I visited the "about" page. Normally I don't have the patience. The snippet explained me the entire app. Perhaps some of it belongs on the home page. How does PaperKarma work? The PaperKarma app enables you simply snap a picture of your unwanted junk mail, press Send, and get unsubscribed. That's it! Just snap your junk mail away. (In about 24 hours you'll receive a notification that you've been unsubscribed. You can always use the app to check on the status of your unsubscribe requests.) A video/animation showing the unsubscribe process could also help clarify the purpose of the app. Those stats are great hooks, but I doubt your potential users would need convincing. You stop spam for yourself first and foremost, that it helps the environment is a nice add-on.
    - smortaz 15y ago
      Dang. The general HN feedback seems to be: great idea, lousy initial messaging :). Back to the drawing board. Thanks for the feedback - will update.
urbanjunkie 15y ago
I'm assuming this is a US only service - you should probably make that clearer if so.
- Maxious 15y ago
  "This item cannot be installed in your device's country." :<
  - smortaz 15y ago
    Sorry about this folks - we'll make it more explicit :(. Also would love to find out which countries you're from & how bad the junk mail problem is over there. thx.
    - mbesto 15y ago
      American living in the UK here... It's just as bad in the UK, if not worse... Take my money!
    - trin_ 15y ago
      here in germany you just put a little "Keine Werbung" (no advertisements) sticker on your mailbox and thats it. the bundesgerichtshof has a judgement dating back to 1988[1] stating that violation of this consitutes a violation of your basic rights. if a company disobeyes this you can basically send them a cease&desist and if they dont stop you can claim damages. (but beware IANAL ;)) [1]http://www.trademarx.de/urteile/bgh_VIII_ZR_182_88.html http://www.trademarx.de/urteile/bgh_VIII_ZR_182_88.html
lucaspiller 15y ago
Looks interesting, but yeah, going on previous comments: 1) How does it work? I can see how the app works, take a photo and magic happens, but what is that magic that stops me receiving junk mail? 2) Does it work outside the US?
- smortaz 15y ago
  Thx lucaspiller: some info in this thread + blog post at: http://www.paperkarma.com/blog http://www.paperkarma.com/blog Sadly US only for now. Where do you live & is there a junk mail problem there if i may ask?
keeptrying 15y ago
Can you make the "Available on the App Store" clickable? I kept pressing that with my finger till I saw the "Download App Here" link ... Great idea. And if it works - you guys are awesome and I will let my facebook peeps know !
tissarah 15y ago
Have you checked out Catalog Choice? They have something similar called MailStop... https://www.catalogchoice.org/mailstop https://www.catalogchoice.org/mailstop
- smortaz 15y ago
  Yup. We've been in open beta for a long time (contacted some of the same folks/ppl that they do)... wondering if we inspired them ;). Flattered if so. We like CC - they're good people.
  - tyrelb 15y ago
    Up here in Canada we use this: http://www.reddotcampaign.ca/ http://www.reddotcampaign.ca/ You put a red dot (i.e. a red sticker, any sticker) in your mailbox, and they will NOT put junk mail in.
    - timjahn 15y ago
      So Canada has this option, and a commenter above said Germany does. Why does the US not have this? What's even sadder is I cannot fathom how you guys have this option. The US has literally grown up with junk mail - it's always about 99% of mail and we cannot fathom what life is like on the other side!
      - rdouble 15y ago
        Junk mailers are the postal system's main customers. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/04/sunday-review/the-junking-of-the-postal-service.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/04/sunday-review/the-junking-...
        timjahn 15y ago
        Which further proves why the Postal Service is not necessary and will not be missed when it's largely out of service 5 years from now.
JoshTriplett 15y ago
Looks awesome; I'd love to use this service. Would you consider providing an API for image uploads, so that people could use the site without an Android or iOS phone? (For example, using a smartphone you don't support, or just sticking junk mail on a scanner.)
cemerick 15y ago
It's a great idea, and I have it queued to be installed to my Android phone. Q: how does this make money? Do large commercial mailers actually pay to have a streamlined unsubscribe mechanism, or is there another customer that I'm missing?
cpr 15y ago
Is the removal process automated, or are you relying on something like Amazon's Mechanical Turk?
- smortaz 15y ago
  cpr some image recognition & company info gathering(url/adrs/phone/...) uses Mturk, the rest is automated.
joblessjunkie 15y ago
What's the business upside? Once you've got millions of people uploading photos of their junk mail along with their names and home addresses, how is this monetized? EDIT: I ask, because this is where the privacy paranoia comes in.
- vannevar 15y ago
  It seems like building a database confirming which kinds of direct mail people don't like would be valuable. If nothing else, it would provide a way to update the names on direct marketing mailing lists (for direct mail that hasn't yet been stopped).
  - JoshTriplett 15y ago
    > It seems like building a database confirming which kinds of direct mail people don't like would be valuable. If nothing else, it would provide a way to update the names on direct marketing mailing lists (for direct mail that hasn't yet been stopped). That seems like the slimiest of all possible options.
    - vannevar 15y ago
      If it were a free service without advertising, there aren't many other options. But from the replies below, it looks like they will charge for the service and show ads. Of course, that doesn't preclude the model I mentioned. Whether it's slimy or not is in the eye of the beholder. I'm ok with someone using this data to proactively eliminate ads I don't want. And if I'm getting junk mail at my house it doesn't really matter what name it's addressed to. It may as well be the right one.
- JoshTriplett 15y ago
  Seems like the best approach would involve making this a paid service, possibly with a free version allowing up to N pieces of junk mail. I'd pay for this service for as long as I continue receiving junk mail.
- smortaz 15y ago
randomdrake 15y ago
I'm sort of torn by this. I really love the idea but the site doesn't do a very good job explaining how it works or what is going on. While it seems like you're attempting to tell a story of the process on the front page, you're getting the user lost. Pardon me while I take the time to list a few gripes but please note that it's only because I really love this idea. 1) Your very first screen is a picture of buttons that appear to be pointed at a tree, with "Take a Photo" prominently displayed. When I see that, the most eye-popping thing on the page, I see nothing about what the app does. It looks like it's for taking pictures in nature. 2) The phone book. Really? For junk mail? Phone books + mobile apps have a very distinct connection. It's confusing, again, when I see you taking photos of a phone book. Does that mean I get to import phone numbers some how? I'd recommend starting with that original piece of junk mail. 3) Take us on the journey and let us step back and forth. As another user commented, let us move with the bullet points. They're useless otherwise. 4) Story that makes sense: Picture of junk mail. "Take a picture of the junk mail you don't want to receive." Show the logo highlighted -- "Our system identifies the logo associated with the junk mail." A picture indicating a message. -- "We notify the organization on your behalf to stop sending junk mail." Show the logo or the picture in the success screen -- "We will notify you upon the success of removing you from their mailing list." Let us see the life of that single piece of junk mail all the way through, in every step of the story, so we have something to follow. 5) Since you've decided to go down the route of associating this service with a message of doing good for the world, why not make that a more prominent point? A big "Why?" link underneath your black bar with a popup that showed the information and numbers you gave us in your comment http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3570470 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3570470 would be a nice addition. Anywho, just a few ideas. I think you've got a good thing going here and for the right reasons, too. Hopefully you will take the ideas folks have here to heart.
ctdonath 15y ago
Is the process reversible? Watching the slideshow, I was going "what's this...ah...really?...hey, yeah, really, I get it! neat...whadayamean Victoria's Secret was stopped?!?! Bring it back! bring it back! undo! reverse!" and could then see myself in a frenzy of point-tap-unsubscribe then realizing I didn't mean to unsubscribe from something important (bills, magazine, fun catalog, whatever).
- smortaz 15y ago
  Actually in the next major update it will be able to do that for some things. ie, you can select what you receive in paper form, & what to receive in your email box. So you can revert & say 'bring back paper V.S.'! Essentially you'll get a dial to control what you get in what form. Will work best mags/cats/etc.
curiousepic 15y ago
Can you simply change the account information to, for example, help your parents stop junkmail to their address? If so, make sure to advertise that you can help others do this in addition to your home address.
- smortaz 15y ago
  Yup! We've made the Name/Adrs field editable so you can temporarily change to grandma's name/adrs, zap her mail away & reset to yours. Next version will have multiple stored adrs support. thx & will make that more prominent.
atacrawl 15y ago
This is a great idea, but I have some constructive criticism about your marketing site: 1) Basically, I think the slideshow is pretty ineffective. a) Why is the first slide a picture of tree branches? It doesn't help me understand what the app does. b) It's not obvious at all that you can switch among slides by clicking the phone, and the slow timer compounds that fact. c) The copy is too far removed from the images, and also isn't highlighted in any meaningful way, hindering its effectiveness. My solution to this would be to record a short, snappy video to place inside the phone "frame" (which I find to be effective). If you want to use photos, do so in a section below the video in more of a step-by-step format. 2) Your marketing message needs some distilling. a) Don't mention saving the earth. I think it distracts from what the app actually does and why someone should download it. You have a great idea! Push that idea and push it hard. b) Overall, there are too many words. For instance, "PaperKarma helps you get rid of paper junk mail and save the Earth at the same time" could be shortened to "Get rid of junk mail" and would be more effective. The initial pitch needs to be boiled down to its essence. 3) I think the overall look of the site isn't very polished and belies the quality of the app.
- smortaz 15y ago
  Thanks atacrawl. Neither of us is designer and we've received the msg loud & clear from HN that we've got some work to do in that department! Will take all your feedback to heart. Updates coming soon.
jasonlgrimes 15y ago
I love this. I was an early adopter and have been using it since release. Keep at it!
sonomacoast 15y ago
Hey, here's an idea, let's Eliminate Junk Websites: I want to take a screen print of all the millions of websites that contribute to Internet pollution and advocate ideas that harm the economy. So, you don't like to receive adverts in the mail. But somehow it's OK for you to send me your garbage emails and fill search engines with nonsense? Seriously! Ok... Let's just shut down the economy and go home. - let's make it illegal to send letters of all kinds (to save paper) and shut down the postal service - let's ignore the waste of all the newsprint (actually faux direct mail) and ban newspapers from selling ... newspapers (no more Bay Guardian or S.F. Chronicle) - let's make it illegal to buy groceries unless you pay for a bag made of recycled plastic (from China) - let's force you to buy an electric car even though there are not enough powerplants to produce the electricity to charge the batteries in your car and iPhone (Yes!) - let's stop printing paper notes (dollar bills) otherwise known as money - let's make it illegal for any person or individual to send unsolicited email or twitter tweets due to excessive resource demands on server and client infrastructure - let's add a surcharge to all bandwidth usage to reduce the burden to the electrical and communications infrastructure - let's require software developers to be licensed annually or they cannot work; we need to monitor your activites to prevent sloppy and inefficient coding Does it really matter if a website is designed well if the underlying idea is flawed? I'm tired of seeing the herd of tech people jump on these band wagons without any independent thought, just BECAUSE you can write software and code. Go ahead, keep adding friction to the economy and one day it will negatively impact your personal economy. Tech

148 points by calvin 15y ago

The site could use a little more explanation. The app store page reveals that behind the scenes, there's a database of junk mail logos mapped to the unsubscribe page/contract details for each piece of mail, and taking a photo causes an unsubscribe request to be sent (with unrecognized junk mail added to a queue to be investigated). That's an awesome idea :) It's also available for Android, which the site doesn't make clear (I left the site thinking "pity it's only on iOS", and only realised when i hit "get the app" to see if the app page had more detail). Finally, neither the site nor the app page says whether this works outside the US - I'm assuming it's US-only?

joshu 15y ago
Agreed. They could also have a blog on how to stop paperspam and get a bunch of traffic for marketing their app. Also a tech blog (how does the image detection work?) etc.
smortaz 15y ago
Cofounder here... camtarn - you're quite right & thanks for confirming our hunches. Will update the site during the next couple of days (UI & text). thx.
- camtarn 15y ago
  Sweet :) I'd been wondering if it was a mobile site issue (should probably have pointed out that I was browsing from my Android phone, oops.) Have now read your blog post, and am really wishing it was available in the UK now - the mechanism of getting something through your door, taking a photo, and being assured that you won't get any more is amazing... like a 'flag as spam' link for physical items. Very nicely done!
  - alexchamberlain 15y ago
    Not sure we've got the same laws in the UK that make a provision for you to contact individual companies requesting removal from their lists. Can't you just ask Royal Mail to stop it?
  - DanBC 15y ago
    In England you can stop anything addresses to you. You start by registering with the Mail Preference Service (while you're there register all phones with telephone preference service). That takes a few weeks but should stop most things. Then you contact the Royal Mail and opt out for door to door. Which stops unaddressed mail delivered by Royal Mail. One important difference between US and UK is that anyone can stuff things through a UK letterbox, but the US mailcan things are protected and only us postal service can put things in them. I agree this service is really neat and would be very popular. Perhaps if they had a way of telling them that you've opted out and this particular bit of mail still came, and then they could handle the complaints? (http://www.stopjunkmail.org.uk/guide/door_to_door_opt_out.php http://www.stopjunkmail.org.uk/guide/door_to_door_opt_out.ph...)
    - camtarn 15y ago
      Ah-hah! I need to go that then :) Thanks for the tip!
anigbrowl 15y ago
What? Unless they've changed it in the last few minutes, there's an android logo smack in the middle of the page.
- abscondment 15y ago
  Other co-founder here- The logos weren't shown on mobile devices up until a few moments ago. Now they're visible everywhere.
jgeerts 15y ago
Awesome idea, but it won't work for some magazines, certainly at the start. Most spam will go unrecognized or am I wrong?
- smortaz 15y ago
  Thx jgeerts - essentially junk mail can be put into to two broad categories: ones for which your name appears on a "list" somewhere & ones that are carpet bombed across zip codes/routes. The former has a pretty decent chance -- pretty high with reputable companies, esp mags/catalogs/credit cards/etc. The latter, it's case by case. Some honor it (eg Valpak), some have no way of suppressing you. In either case we provide you Sender info (click on the company tab) w information in case you want to give them a piece of your mind :).

rplnt 15y ago

Those bullets showing at which "frame" are you. You can't switch between them manually which makes them kind of pointless. I couldn't read what I want and it took me some time to read through all of it. Also, second and third bullet have the same text. When the photo changed it made me read it again. After reading through I still knew nothing. Market description was much more informative. PS: It should be geographically blocked on markets (is it possible?) as I guess it only works in USA

smortaz 15y ago
Feedback taken to heart rpint - changes coming. thx.

jazzychad 15y ago

This is a great idea, but as a paranoid privacy nut I'm a little hesitant to fork over my info to a company I don't really know. The potential upside is so tempting, though. Has anyone had experience with this app yet?

masonlee 15y ago
I agree that some prominent privacy statements would be very helpful given that the target audience hates being targeted for junk mail.
smortaz 15y ago
jazzychat we're both extremely privacy conscious individuals and from day one pledged our own version of Do No Evil. In fact, during sign up, we ask for minimal info to get the unsubscribes processed: ie name & address -- which by the way the junk mailers /already have/ since they're sending you stuff. Beyond that, some companies require your email address. We don't give them out. We supply a proxied email to ensure they dont get anything beyond what they have already. Hope this helps... Our blog has a bit more info: http://www.paperkarma.com/blog/ http://www.paperkarma.com/blog/ edit: grammar - it's 2am & brain is running on one core in low power mode...
- ajays 15y ago
  " which by the way the junk mailers /already have/ since they're sending you stuff. " Not necessarily. A lot of times junk mail is directed to just the address, and not the resident. You can tell that by the "To" line, which will say "Current resident" or "resident". They pay the USPS to carpet bomb each and every mailbox with their catalog. This service won't be able to do much about that.
  - smortaz 15y ago
    This is valid criticism & mostly true. Note that for most zip code or route delivered junk mail, they'll be marked as AutoFail internally & show up on your phone under the "Failed" tab. However, we'll provide you company info so you call/write the company yourself if you choose too. I say mostly true, because many companies, such as Valpak, pseudo carpet bomb -- they many not have your name, but in order to remove you from their list (and they do!), they require full name & address.

mvanveen 15y ago

This seems like a really cool idea that I'd like to try, except I have no idea how taking a picture will do anything for anyone. Can you please elaborate or provide some explanation so I can understand? Thanks!

smortaz 15y ago
mvanveen, here's a link to our blog post which goes into a little more detail: http://www.paperkarma.com/blog/ http://www.paperkarma.com/blog/ In short, we don't do anything that you couldn't do yourself... we just make it a tad bit less painful. The general pipeline is this: scans come in, they get processed (human/OCR), the company is looked up, request to unsubscribe is sent, your phone is updated. In 2 months we follow up with you to make sure they honored the request. If not, we'll follow up with them on your behalf (by our lawyer - FTC FTW). The app basically provides convenience. We've just spent a year building up a database of who manages customer lists at what company, who the privacy officer is, whether they have customer suppression lists, etc. That's where rubber & asphalt really meet. As with each scan that comes in the DB improves. *OCR is experimental: mixed results. Hope this helps! edit:formatting
- itmag 15y ago
  Would be interesting to hear how you scale a semi-automated business like that?
- Terretta 15y ago
  I get junk mail to a PO Box and two street addresses. Most of our junk mail is my SO's name, some of it's in mine. When I subscribe to a magazine, I sometimes use a different middle initial, which tells me who sells my address. AFAIK, none of them have our phone numbers. How does this work for varying names in the household and multiple addresses? We receive 8 inches of junk mail every two weeks, mostly catalogs and CC offers, so can't wait to try this once I know how I can use it for our situation.

anigbrowl 15y ago

Personally, I found it blindingly obvious and look forward to trying it tomorrow. If it works I will give this company all my money (well not literally you understand, but I hate paper junk mail with a passion and I hate the USPS management for insisting that it's the mainstay of their economic planning...idiots). This is made of win as far as I am concerned - which probably means it's a smallish market, but hopefully large enough to make a profit from. Which brings me to my question: I can see what the consumer benefit is immediately, but what's the business model if not large-scale group analytics? Will advertising/marketing firms pay to understand what sort of customers they do not connect with?

smortaz 15y ago
Thanks anigbrowl... your comment is very inspiring! Re Biz model: priority one is getting enough of a user base so we have a ticket to the dance. After that there are several possibilities, some of which are implemented already, but not activated: 1. N free scan per month, in app purchase for more for some $. or $/year. 2. some non-obnoxious ads, esp for compliant companies that honor unsubscribe requests 3. PK is really about mailbox management: get what you want & only what you want -- and push as much as possible toward digital versions. eg: I love Costco. But i don't want receive their catalog & kill trees. I rather PK -- with my explicit permission/opt in -- sign me up to receive E-coupons or a digital version of the Cotsco Shopper. At the end of the month when I visit Costco I just grab my E-coupons or read their catalog on my iPad... In summary: we save Costco printing/delivery costs & provide them with an opt-in customer & charge Costco: win/win. Ideally we'd like to push for #3 & keep the app free. Hope this helps! s
- anigbrowl 15y ago
  That's useful to know. We just bought a house and are in mid-move (some renovations still going on) and I have been fascinated to see how junk mail companies (ab)use prublic records to extend their reach. I look forward to trying the service.
- aridiculous 15y ago
  My first thoughts about monetization: 1) allow people to sign up for catalogs too. I know that sounds insane to you, but I think a lot of people woul like a place to go to get stuff from stores and categories they like. That's easily monetized with the vendors themselves as part of their customer acquisition cost. 2) Even if you just stuck to removing from lists, you're actually providing value to the the direct mailers. They have one less printing and postage item cost that would have either been useless or pissed someone off. That could be over a dollar per household saved with each mailing.

kapilkale 15y ago

Great idea. IMO the tagline on the HN post is far more effective than the one on the site. I'd explain this to a friend as "Take a picture of your junk mail, and this app automatically unsubscribes you from it". Things like "save the earth" confuse me. A description of how you actually unsubscribe would be helpful too, for the curious and the skeptical. "We automatically contact the junk-mailer for you and have you removed from their subscriber list."

smortaz 15y ago
This is why I love HN. Great advice & to the point :). We actually experimented with various msgs & lots of people resonated with the Environmental angle. Here are some mind numbing stats: 1. Over 100,000,000,000 pieces of junk mail per year sent in the US 2. 18 pieces of junk mail for 1 that you actually care about 3. Several -months- of your life spent processing junk mail (!) 4. 100s of thousands of dollars spent by cities (ie, your tax money) on post processing, landfills, etc. & Nevermind the carbon footprint from manufacturing, processing & delivery of junk mail... re Description: check! Cheers, s
- blauwbilgorgel 15y ago
  I had no clue what the app did untill I visited the "about" page. Normally I don't have the patience. The snippet explained me the entire app. Perhaps some of it belongs on the home page. How does PaperKarma work? The PaperKarma app enables you simply snap a picture of your unwanted junk mail, press Send, and get unsubscribed. That's it! Just snap your junk mail away. (In about 24 hours you'll receive a notification that you've been unsubscribed. You can always use the app to check on the status of your unsubscribe requests.) A video/animation showing the unsubscribe process could also help clarify the purpose of the app. Those stats are great hooks, but I doubt your potential users would need convincing. You stop spam for yourself first and foremost, that it helps the environment is a nice add-on.
  - smortaz 15y ago
    Dang. The general HN feedback seems to be: great idea, lousy initial messaging :). Back to the drawing board. Thanks for the feedback - will update.

urbanjunkie 15y ago

I'm assuming this is a US only service - you should probably make that clearer if so.

Maxious 15y ago
"This item cannot be installed in your device's country." :<
- smortaz 15y ago
  Sorry about this folks - we'll make it more explicit :(. Also would love to find out which countries you're from & how bad the junk mail problem is over there. thx.
  - mbesto 15y ago
    American living in the UK here... It's just as bad in the UK, if not worse... Take my money!
  - trin_ 15y ago
    here in germany you just put a little "Keine Werbung" (no advertisements) sticker on your mailbox and thats it. the bundesgerichtshof has a judgement dating back to 1988[1] stating that violation of this consitutes a violation of your basic rights. if a company disobeyes this you can basically send them a cease&desist and if they dont stop you can claim damages. (but beware IANAL ;)) [1]http://www.trademarx.de/urteile/bgh_VIII_ZR_182_88.html http://www.trademarx.de/urteile/bgh_VIII_ZR_182_88.html

lucaspiller 15y ago

Looks interesting, but yeah, going on previous comments: 1) How does it work? I can see how the app works, take a photo and magic happens, but what is that magic that stops me receiving junk mail? 2) Does it work outside the US?

smortaz 15y ago
Thx lucaspiller: some info in this thread + blog post at: http://www.paperkarma.com/blog http://www.paperkarma.com/blog Sadly US only for now. Where do you live & is there a junk mail problem there if i may ask?

keeptrying 15y ago

Can you make the "Available on the App Store" clickable? I kept pressing that with my finger till I saw the "Download App Here" link ... Great idea. And if it works - you guys are awesome and I will let my facebook peeps know !

tissarah 15y ago

Have you checked out Catalog Choice? They have something similar called MailStop... https://www.catalogchoice.org/mailstop https://www.catalogchoice.org/mailstop

smortaz 15y ago
Yup. We've been in open beta for a long time (contacted some of the same folks/ppl that they do)... wondering if we inspired them ;). Flattered if so. We like CC - they're good people.
- tyrelb 15y ago
  Up here in Canada we use this: http://www.reddotcampaign.ca/ http://www.reddotcampaign.ca/ You put a red dot (i.e. a red sticker, any sticker) in your mailbox, and they will NOT put junk mail in.
  - timjahn 15y ago
    So Canada has this option, and a commenter above said Germany does. Why does the US not have this? What's even sadder is I cannot fathom how you guys have this option. The US has literally grown up with junk mail - it's always about 99% of mail and we cannot fathom what life is like on the other side!
    - rdouble 15y ago
      Junk mailers are the postal system's main customers. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/04/sunday-review/the-junking-of-the-postal-service.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/04/sunday-review/the-junking-...
      - timjahn 15y ago
        Which further proves why the Postal Service is not necessary and will not be missed when it's largely out of service 5 years from now.

JoshTriplett 15y ago

Looks awesome; I'd love to use this service. Would you consider providing an API for image uploads, so that people could use the site without an Android or iOS phone? (For example, using a smartphone you don't support, or just sticking junk mail on a scanner.)

cemerick 15y ago

It's a great idea, and I have it queued to be installed to my Android phone. Q: how does this make money? Do large commercial mailers actually pay to have a streamlined unsubscribe mechanism, or is there another customer that I'm missing?

cpr 15y ago

Is the removal process automated, or are you relying on something like Amazon's Mechanical Turk?

smortaz 15y ago
cpr some image recognition & company info gathering(url/adrs/phone/...) uses Mturk, the rest is automated.

joblessjunkie 15y ago

What's the business upside? Once you've got millions of people uploading photos of their junk mail along with their names and home addresses, how is this monetized? EDIT: I ask, because this is where the privacy paranoia comes in.

vannevar 15y ago
It seems like building a database confirming which kinds of direct mail people don't like would be valuable. If nothing else, it would provide a way to update the names on direct marketing mailing lists (for direct mail that hasn't yet been stopped).
- JoshTriplett 15y ago
  > It seems like building a database confirming which kinds of direct mail people don't like would be valuable. If nothing else, it would provide a way to update the names on direct marketing mailing lists (for direct mail that hasn't yet been stopped). That seems like the slimiest of all possible options.
  - vannevar 15y ago
    If it were a free service without advertising, there aren't many other options. But from the replies below, it looks like they will charge for the service and show ads. Of course, that doesn't preclude the model I mentioned. Whether it's slimy or not is in the eye of the beholder. I'm ok with someone using this data to proactively eliminate ads I don't want. And if I'm getting junk mail at my house it doesn't really matter what name it's addressed to. It may as well be the right one.
JoshTriplett 15y ago
Seems like the best approach would involve making this a paid service, possibly with a free version allowing up to N pieces of junk mail. I'd pay for this service for as long as I continue receiving junk mail.
smortaz 15y ago

randomdrake 15y ago

I'm sort of torn by this. I really love the idea but the site doesn't do a very good job explaining how it works or what is going on. While it seems like you're attempting to tell a story of the process on the front page, you're getting the user lost. Pardon me while I take the time to list a few gripes but please note that it's only because I really love this idea. 1) Your very first screen is a picture of buttons that appear to be pointed at a tree, with "Take a Photo" prominently displayed. When I see that, the most eye-popping thing on the page, I see nothing about what the app does. It looks like it's for taking pictures in nature. 2) The phone book. Really? For junk mail? Phone books + mobile apps have a very distinct connection. It's confusing, again, when I see you taking photos of a phone book. Does that mean I get to import phone numbers some how? I'd recommend starting with that original piece of junk mail. 3) Take us on the journey and let us step back and forth. As another user commented, let us move with the bullet points. They're useless otherwise. 4) Story that makes sense: Picture of junk mail. "Take a picture of the junk mail you don't want to receive." Show the logo highlighted -- "Our system identifies the logo associated with the junk mail." A picture indicating a message. -- "We notify the organization on your behalf to stop sending junk mail." Show the logo or the picture in the success screen -- "We will notify you upon the success of removing you from their mailing list." Let us see the life of that single piece of junk mail all the way through, in every step of the story, so we have something to follow. 5) Since you've decided to go down the route of associating this service with a message of doing good for the world, why not make that a more prominent point? A big "Why?" link underneath your black bar with a popup that showed the information and numbers you gave us in your comment http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3570470 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3570470 would be a nice addition. Anywho, just a few ideas. I think you've got a good thing going here and for the right reasons, too. Hopefully you will take the ideas folks have here to heart.

ctdonath 15y ago

Is the process reversible? Watching the slideshow, I was going "what's this...ah...really?...hey, yeah, really, I get it! neat...whadayamean Victoria's Secret was stopped?!?! Bring it back! bring it back! undo! reverse!" and could then see myself in a frenzy of point-tap-unsubscribe then realizing I didn't mean to unsubscribe from something important (bills, magazine, fun catalog, whatever).

smortaz 15y ago
Actually in the next major update it will be able to do that for some things. ie, you can select what you receive in paper form, & what to receive in your email box. So you can revert & say 'bring back paper V.S.'! Essentially you'll get a dial to control what you get in what form. Will work best mags/cats/etc.

curiousepic 15y ago

Can you simply change the account information to, for example, help your parents stop junkmail to their address? If so, make sure to advertise that you can help others do this in addition to your home address.

smortaz 15y ago
Yup! We've made the Name/Adrs field editable so you can temporarily change to grandma's name/adrs, zap her mail away & reset to yours. Next version will have multiple stored adrs support. thx & will make that more prominent.

atacrawl 15y ago

This is a great idea, but I have some constructive criticism about your marketing site: 1) Basically, I think the slideshow is pretty ineffective. a) Why is the first slide a picture of tree branches? It doesn't help me understand what the app does. b) It's not obvious at all that you can switch among slides by clicking the phone, and the slow timer compounds that fact. c) The copy is too far removed from the images, and also isn't highlighted in any meaningful way, hindering its effectiveness. My solution to this would be to record a short, snappy video to place inside the phone "frame" (which I find to be effective). If you want to use photos, do so in a section below the video in more of a step-by-step format. 2) Your marketing message needs some distilling. a) Don't mention saving the earth. I think it distracts from what the app actually does and why someone should download it. You have a great idea! Push that idea and push it hard. b) Overall, there are too many words. For instance, "PaperKarma helps you get rid of paper junk mail and save the Earth at the same time" could be shortened to "Get rid of junk mail" and would be more effective. The initial pitch needs to be boiled down to its essence. 3) I think the overall look of the site isn't very polished and belies the quality of the app.

smortaz 15y ago
Thanks atacrawl. Neither of us is designer and we've received the msg loud & clear from HN that we've got some work to do in that department! Will take all your feedback to heart. Updates coming soon.

jasonlgrimes 15y ago

I love this. I was an early adopter and have been using it since release. Keep at it!

sonomacoast 15y ago

Hey, here's an idea, let's Eliminate Junk Websites: I want to take a screen print of all the millions of websites that contribute to Internet pollution and advocate ideas that harm the economy. So, you don't like to receive adverts in the mail. But somehow it's OK for you to send me your garbage emails and fill search engines with nonsense? Seriously! Ok... Let's just shut down the economy and go home. - let's make it illegal to send letters of all kinds (to save paper) and shut down the postal service - let's ignore the waste of all the newsprint (actually faux direct mail) and ban newspapers from selling ... newspapers (no more Bay Guardian or S.F. Chronicle) - let's make it illegal to buy groceries unless you pay for a bag made of recycled plastic (from China) - let's force you to buy an electric car even though there are not enough powerplants to produce the electricity to charge the batteries in your car and iPhone (Yes!) - let's stop printing paper notes (dollar bills) otherwise known as money - let's make it illegal for any person or individual to send unsolicited email or twitter tweets due to excessive resource demands on server and client infrastructure - let's add a surcharge to all bandwidth usage to reduce the burden to the electrical and communications infrastructure - let's require software developers to be licensed annually or they cannot work; we need to monitor your activites to prevent sloppy and inefficient coding Does it really matter if a website is designed well if the underlying idea is flawed? I'm tired of seeing the herd of tech people jump on these band wagons without any independent thought, just BECAUSE you can write software and code. Go ahead, keep adding friction to the economy and one day it will negatively impact your personal economy. Tech