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That's why you install a firewall on your phone and disallow all outgoing traffic by default - possible with Android, impossible with iOS as far as I know - and

That's why you install a firewall on your phone and disallow all outgoing traffic by default - possible with Android, impossible with iOS as far as I know - and keep those drivers away from the 'net. Yes, the device works, you just see loads of 'connection errors' in logcat but those just tell me things work as intended by me by not working as intended by the likes of Qualcomm. As to aGPS being necessary this depends on how often you use GPS. Without aGPS it takes a while for the device to lock after a total cold start but once it has locked it should be able to reacquire lock within a short timeframe. As long as you do not move more than 100 km from the position you were when you last switched off GPS, the clock is within 20 seconds and you're not breaking any speed limits you'll get a fix within a few minutes assuming the receiver can see some satellites. In other words, GPS works fine without aGPS.

jsiepkes 3y ago
> That's why you install a firewall on your phone and disallow all outgoing traffic by default If it's being done by the firmware on the Qualcomm SOC then a firewall in Android is not going to save you.
- the_third_wave 3y ago
  The firmware on the SOC does not connect directly to the 'net, it interfaces with Android to do so. Android uses the Linux kernel and the Linux IP stack. That IP stack uses Netfilter [1] for filtering and packet mangling. The firewall uses iptables to define Netfilter rulesets which control which data gets sent where, which application is allowed to send data - this includes the kernel (and modules) itself. Block all outgoing traffic - which I do by default - and no data goes out. Try it if you don't believe this, you'll find out it is how things work. So yes, Android - or rather the Linux kernel on which Android is built - is going to "save me" in that I am in control over which application (including whatever Qualcomm uses) gets to send data. Apple users are out of luck since iOS does not allow this type of filtering but Android does. [1] https://www.netfilter.org/ https://www.netfilter.org/
  - jsiepkes 3y ago
    > The firmware on the SOC does not connect directly to the 'net, it interfaces with Android to do so. Do you have any documentation on this? Even firmware such as Intel ME or UEFI implementations connect directly to the Internet itself. So I have a hard time believing the firmware on a Qualcomm SOC does not directly connect to the Internet itself.
    - the_third_wave 3y ago
      No, I do not have any documentation on this nor do I expect any documentation from the likes of Qualcomm where they claim not to exfiltrate data without prior agreement to be all that convincing. What I do have is experience in using firewalls on Android devices for as long as I've used those (about 12 years). I regularly use packet sniffers to see what these devices send to the 'net both to check whether my own stuff is working OK and to check for unwanted traffic. Setting the firewall to block outgoing traffic before enabling network connectivity has always been effective, this includes devices using Qualcomm modems. I use WiFi for these tests just like described in the article as testing for unwanted traffic going over the 3/4/5G connection is only possible if you have a private 4/5G network which I do not (yet) have. I tend not to use 3/4/5G data though - I only have a single device on which I have data enabled and paid for, the rest goes through life using only WiFi. If Qualcomm has made a deal with all mobile operators to push their telemetry through 3/4/5G even on accounts which have data disabled (as in 'not paid for' as well as 'function disabled in Android') they're in for a world of hurt when that news is brought to the light. I assume they have no such agreements as it would not make any sense seeing how easy it is to just use Android and iOS to push that data back to the mothership - which seems to be what they are doing. They are far from the only ones doing this, it is actually the main reason why I block outgoing traffic by default. Just give it a try sometimes, take a device and hook it up to the network through WiFi. Use a packet sniffer on the router to intercept everything coming from that device and feed the result to something like Wireshark. Do the same with that device with a firewall filtering all outgoing traffic and compare the results.
codetiger 3y ago
The article is about the hardware chip directly sending these information, not through drivers. It is not about iOS or Android or any other OS.
- wiml 3y ago
  According to the link nwcs posted, it's being done by a user level Java process, not by the modem firmware or anything like that.
- luca020400 3y ago
  The download is done from the Android side. It's a privileged app ( a service in Android lang ) that once fetched sends the data to the modem, where GPS is actively implemented, and augmented by such extra data.
- the_third_wave 3y ago
  Pray tell, how does the hardware chip send data to Qualcomm? That data goes over the 'net, right? How does that hardware chip interface with the 'net? The answer here is 'through the OS' since that is how network connections are made on these devices. Even if the hardware chip contained an IP stack it would still need a network connection to get the data back to Qualcomm. That network connection goes either over the wireless interface (3/4/5G), via WiFi, Bluetooth, NFC or any of the other interfaces the device has - all of which are controlled through the OS. Android, being built on top of Linux which contains Netfilter as I explained elsewhere [1] which allows you to block network access no matter whether the data originates from some hardware chip or somewhere else. The only way data could make its way off the device is if the radio firmware made a covert connection to Qualcomm which could be used to totally bypass the Linux kernel. That connection would not use the system IP stack and it could work even if the user does not have data active. It would need cooperation from network operators (all over the world) to get the data out of the carrier's network to Qualcomm. This is not what this article is about, it is quite possible that the likes of the NSA are up to this type of shenanigans since they may be able to force carriers to do their bidding [2] but Qualcomm is just another corporation looking to 'get to know their customers'. Read the article and you'll see that the data is exfiltrated through Android. A default block for outgoing data - like I use - blocks this just as well as it blocks other similar attempts. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35707645 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35707645 [2] https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/how-att-helped-the-nsa-spy-on-millions/ https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/how-att-helped-th...
77pt77 3y ago
This completely bypasses the OS. The kernel never even sees it. Addendum: To the people downvoting, the article is clear: > During operation, the covert operating system (AMSS) has complete control over the hardware, microphone and camera. The Linux kernel and deGoogled /e/OS end-user operating system function as a slave on top of the hidden AMSS operating system.
- luca020400 3y ago
  This operating system, know as firmware running in the DSP. That's the only sane way to have a working device that needs to handle signals. It's not hidden in any way, and the kernel/Android actively talks with it, configures it, turns it on/off.
  - 77pt77 3y ago
    But the kernel does not know what it does. In fact, the article claims: > During operation, the covert operating system (AMSS) has complete control over the hardware, microphone and camera
    - the_third_wave 3y ago
      Yes, it claims AMSS can control hardware. It also claims data is exfiltrated. Read carefully and you'll see it does not claim the data is exfiltrated through AMSS - they're using WiFi for their experiment which has nothing to do with AMSS, the mobile radio firmware. Correlation does not equate causation but they want you to think it does so you run to their web shop to buy a rebranded Google Pixel 7 (with Samsung's Exynos 5300 radio modem and accompanying firmware which has just as much control over the hardware as Qualcomm's AMSS has...).
      - luca020400 3y ago
        Yep, everything you said is correct. The AMSS has control of the hardware, but there's different components, each implementing different functionality, they may be able to talk with each other using various IPC mechanism, and they do, but mostly using Android as a middleman ( Linux ) WiFi ( known as cnss on QCOM ) is implemented in a different block than GPS, they don't have direct communication in place. It's routed via the Linux kernel ( and userspace processes )
obsidianintel 3y ago
vpn/sentry is back on the market

jsiepkes 3y ago

> That's why you install a firewall on your phone and disallow all outgoing traffic by default If it's being done by the firmware on the Qualcomm SOC then a firewall in Android is not going to save you.

the_third_wave 3y ago
The firmware on the SOC does not connect directly to the 'net, it interfaces with Android to do so. Android uses the Linux kernel and the Linux IP stack. That IP stack uses Netfilter [1] for filtering and packet mangling. The firewall uses iptables to define Netfilter rulesets which control which data gets sent where, which application is allowed to send data - this includes the kernel (and modules) itself. Block all outgoing traffic - which I do by default - and no data goes out. Try it if you don't believe this, you'll find out it is how things work. So yes, Android - or rather the Linux kernel on which Android is built - is going to "save me" in that I am in control over which application (including whatever Qualcomm uses) gets to send data. Apple users are out of luck since iOS does not allow this type of filtering but Android does. [1] https://www.netfilter.org/ https://www.netfilter.org/
- jsiepkes 3y ago
  > The firmware on the SOC does not connect directly to the 'net, it interfaces with Android to do so. Do you have any documentation on this? Even firmware such as Intel ME or UEFI implementations connect directly to the Internet itself. So I have a hard time believing the firmware on a Qualcomm SOC does not directly connect to the Internet itself.
  - the_third_wave 3y ago
    No, I do not have any documentation on this nor do I expect any documentation from the likes of Qualcomm where they claim not to exfiltrate data without prior agreement to be all that convincing. What I do have is experience in using firewalls on Android devices for as long as I've used those (about 12 years). I regularly use packet sniffers to see what these devices send to the 'net both to check whether my own stuff is working OK and to check for unwanted traffic. Setting the firewall to block outgoing traffic before enabling network connectivity has always been effective, this includes devices using Qualcomm modems. I use WiFi for these tests just like described in the article as testing for unwanted traffic going over the 3/4/5G connection is only possible if you have a private 4/5G network which I do not (yet) have. I tend not to use 3/4/5G data though - I only have a single device on which I have data enabled and paid for, the rest goes through life using only WiFi. If Qualcomm has made a deal with all mobile operators to push their telemetry through 3/4/5G even on accounts which have data disabled (as in 'not paid for' as well as 'function disabled in Android') they're in for a world of hurt when that news is brought to the light. I assume they have no such agreements as it would not make any sense seeing how easy it is to just use Android and iOS to push that data back to the mothership - which seems to be what they are doing. They are far from the only ones doing this, it is actually the main reason why I block outgoing traffic by default. Just give it a try sometimes, take a device and hook it up to the network through WiFi. Use a packet sniffer on the router to intercept everything coming from that device and feed the result to something like Wireshark. Do the same with that device with a firewall filtering all outgoing traffic and compare the results.

codetiger 3y ago

The article is about the hardware chip directly sending these information, not through drivers. It is not about iOS or Android or any other OS.

wiml 3y ago
According to the link nwcs posted, it's being done by a user level Java process, not by the modem firmware or anything like that.
luca020400 3y ago
The download is done from the Android side. It's a privileged app ( a service in Android lang ) that once fetched sends the data to the modem, where GPS is actively implemented, and augmented by such extra data.
the_third_wave 3y ago
Pray tell, how does the hardware chip send data to Qualcomm? That data goes over the 'net, right? How does that hardware chip interface with the 'net? The answer here is 'through the OS' since that is how network connections are made on these devices. Even if the hardware chip contained an IP stack it would still need a network connection to get the data back to Qualcomm. That network connection goes either over the wireless interface (3/4/5G), via WiFi, Bluetooth, NFC or any of the other interfaces the device has - all of which are controlled through the OS. Android, being built on top of Linux which contains Netfilter as I explained elsewhere [1] which allows you to block network access no matter whether the data originates from some hardware chip or somewhere else. The only way data could make its way off the device is if the radio firmware made a covert connection to Qualcomm which could be used to totally bypass the Linux kernel. That connection would not use the system IP stack and it could work even if the user does not have data active. It would need cooperation from network operators (all over the world) to get the data out of the carrier's network to Qualcomm. This is not what this article is about, it is quite possible that the likes of the NSA are up to this type of shenanigans since they may be able to force carriers to do their bidding [2] but Qualcomm is just another corporation looking to 'get to know their customers'. Read the article and you'll see that the data is exfiltrated through Android. A default block for outgoing data - like I use - blocks this just as well as it blocks other similar attempts. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35707645 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35707645 [2] https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/how-att-helped-the-nsa-spy-on-millions/ https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/how-att-helped-th...

77pt77 3y ago

This completely bypasses the OS. The kernel never even sees it. Addendum: To the people downvoting, the article is clear: > During operation, the covert operating system (AMSS) has complete control over the hardware, microphone and camera. The Linux kernel and deGoogled /e/OS end-user operating system function as a slave on top of the hidden AMSS operating system.

luca020400 3y ago
This operating system, know as firmware running in the DSP. That's the only sane way to have a working device that needs to handle signals. It's not hidden in any way, and the kernel/Android actively talks with it, configures it, turns it on/off.
- 77pt77 3y ago
  But the kernel does not know what it does. In fact, the article claims: > During operation, the covert operating system (AMSS) has complete control over the hardware, microphone and camera
  - the_third_wave 3y ago
    Yes, it claims AMSS can control hardware. It also claims data is exfiltrated. Read carefully and you'll see it does not claim the data is exfiltrated through AMSS - they're using WiFi for their experiment which has nothing to do with AMSS, the mobile radio firmware. Correlation does not equate causation but they want you to think it does so you run to their web shop to buy a rebranded Google Pixel 7 (with Samsung's Exynos 5300 radio modem and accompanying firmware which has just as much control over the hardware as Qualcomm's AMSS has...).
    - luca020400 3y ago
      Yep, everything you said is correct. The AMSS has control of the hardware, but there's different components, each implementing different functionality, they may be able to talk with each other using various IPC mechanism, and they do, but mostly using Android as a middleman ( Linux ) WiFi ( known as cnss on QCOM ) is implemented in a different block than GPS, they don't have direct communication in place. It's routed via the Linux kernel ( and userspace processes )

obsidianintel 3y ago

vpn/sentry is back on the market