3 ms·

Let me get my broken record out to say that "trust" in certain institutions, as well as cryptographic signing, will become even more indispensable over time. We

Let me get my broken record out to say that "trust" in certain institutions, as well as cryptographic signing, will become even more indispensable over time. Webs of trust where items and documents are signed by trusted organizations to be authentic/unaltered, since we won't be able to trust our eyes or ears.

ChatGTP 4y ago
How will you know the crypto hasn't been broken by "AI"?
- chpatrick 4y ago
  I think at that point we'll be well and truly screwed.
  - ChatGTP 4y ago
    But what I'm confused about is that we're supposed to be using AI to do, cancer research, solve all diseases and the mysteries of the universe, but some how cryptographically signed photos are out out the question?
    - chpatrick 4y ago
      I mean if we're at the point where an AI has cryptographic knowledge unknown to humanity and is using it maliciously, verified images will be the least of our problems.
    - unethical_ban 4y ago
      What do you mean? I don't argue that it will be impossible in the long term. Right now, though, AI doesn't seem to be able to solve fundamental new problems - only to see patterns that humans can't yet see. I don't know if it is yet expected for AI to do fundamental new research on algorithms. I also don't think the person above you suggested it's not possible - but their point stands, AI is going to really fuck society up if there is literally no way to communicate further than seeing/hearing distance between humans without knowing if the message is genuine. We'll have solved cancer and reverted to the 1700s.
fullshark 4y ago
The solution might be as simple as paywalls and user verification and accepting anything in front of a paywall is just AI generated spam trash. Also teaching history out of a history book, or possibly a walled garden online platform instead of wikipedia/youtube.
- butler14 4y ago
  I agree. As well as creating new impetus for governments to push towards RealID, I think generative AI will accelerate the rate at which websites start to wall-off behind logins and we see a resurgence in private communities. I'm reminded of Facebook's progression over the past 5-6 years, where, in its established markets at least, most of the good stuff happens in private Facebook groups or private WhatsApp chats, not on the 'public' newsfeed/wall.
Wowfunhappy 4y ago
HDCP lasted... I think it might have been three years, the second time? Or maybe four years, I can't recall. Why would any kind of camera photo signing algorithm fare better?
- tivert 4y ago
  > Why would any kind of camera photo signing algorithm fare better? You probably wouldn't even have to bother. If you want to fake history, just launder your images: setup rig where an SLR camera can telecine the images off a high resolution screen. With some optics you could probably also adjust the other camera parameters (like focus, f-stop) to make it more convincing.
  - Wowfunhappy 4y ago
    You could imagine a timestamp being built into the signature, and maybe even gps coordinates, although I agree it wouldn't be a complete solution.
    - tivert 4y ago
      > You could imagine a timestamp being built into the signature, and maybe even gps coordinates, although I agree it wouldn't be a complete solution. Both those things can be faked. IIRC, they make chambers right now that simulate GPS signals for testing receivers. If you can fake GPS, you can fake the time, too.
- unethical_ban 4y ago
  You assumed a specific instance of signing when I was talking generally. Reporters attesting to their newsroom the authenticity of a photo, libraries and museums having stronger chain of custody and documentation of the state of their collections, etc. As far as hardware signing, perhaps PKI and per-camera keys could be issued. HDCP was encryption with global symmetric keys, no? This would be a different case.

ChatGTP 4y ago

How will you know the crypto hasn't been broken by "AI"?

chpatrick 4y ago
I think at that point we'll be well and truly screwed.
- ChatGTP 4y ago
  But what I'm confused about is that we're supposed to be using AI to do, cancer research, solve all diseases and the mysteries of the universe, but some how cryptographically signed photos are out out the question?
  - chpatrick 4y ago
    I mean if we're at the point where an AI has cryptographic knowledge unknown to humanity and is using it maliciously, verified images will be the least of our problems.
  - unethical_ban 4y ago
    What do you mean? I don't argue that it will be impossible in the long term. Right now, though, AI doesn't seem to be able to solve fundamental new problems - only to see patterns that humans can't yet see. I don't know if it is yet expected for AI to do fundamental new research on algorithms. I also don't think the person above you suggested it's not possible - but their point stands, AI is going to really fuck society up if there is literally no way to communicate further than seeing/hearing distance between humans without knowing if the message is genuine. We'll have solved cancer and reverted to the 1700s.

fullshark 4y ago

The solution might be as simple as paywalls and user verification and accepting anything in front of a paywall is just AI generated spam trash. Also teaching history out of a history book, or possibly a walled garden online platform instead of wikipedia/youtube.

butler14 4y ago
I agree. As well as creating new impetus for governments to push towards RealID, I think generative AI will accelerate the rate at which websites start to wall-off behind logins and we see a resurgence in private communities. I'm reminded of Facebook's progression over the past 5-6 years, where, in its established markets at least, most of the good stuff happens in private Facebook groups or private WhatsApp chats, not on the 'public' newsfeed/wall.

Wowfunhappy 4y ago

HDCP lasted... I think it might have been three years, the second time? Or maybe four years, I can't recall. Why would any kind of camera photo signing algorithm fare better?

tivert 4y ago
> Why would any kind of camera photo signing algorithm fare better? You probably wouldn't even have to bother. If you want to fake history, just launder your images: setup rig where an SLR camera can telecine the images off a high resolution screen. With some optics you could probably also adjust the other camera parameters (like focus, f-stop) to make it more convincing.
- Wowfunhappy 4y ago
  You could imagine a timestamp being built into the signature, and maybe even gps coordinates, although I agree it wouldn't be a complete solution.
  - tivert 4y ago
    > You could imagine a timestamp being built into the signature, and maybe even gps coordinates, although I agree it wouldn't be a complete solution. Both those things can be faked. IIRC, they make chambers right now that simulate GPS signals for testing receivers. If you can fake GPS, you can fake the time, too.
unethical_ban 4y ago
You assumed a specific instance of signing when I was talking generally. Reporters attesting to their newsroom the authenticity of a photo, libraries and museums having stronger chain of custody and documentation of the state of their collections, etc. As far as hardware signing, perhaps PKI and per-camera keys could be issued. HDCP was encryption with global symmetric keys, no? This would be a different case.