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> When Henson was 6, he tested off the charts on an IQ test I find it very hard to believe an IQ test on a six year old is going to be much of a indicator of a

by davemp 3y ago

> When Henson was 6, he tested off the charts on an IQ test I find it very hard to believe an IQ test on a six year old is going to be much of a indicator of anything. I guess it would at least indicate that the child belongs to a group whose parents’ would give a six year old an IQ test. > We routinely take our best and brightest, tell them a high IQ is good for making money and essentially try to break them in childhood. We could do better, if we really wanted to. We could start by not trying to abuse IQ on an individual level.

DoreenMichele 3y ago
I used to do pro bono professional work for a gifted organization. It was generally understood that a child with an extremely high IQ should be assessed at a young age to get the most accurate results. Though there is a difference between testing and assessment and lots of pitfalls with such and TFA doesn't give enough info to determine which he got. Some people assess kids young for all the right reasons. This case being mishandled isn't proof kids should never be tested or assessed at an early age.
- davemp 3y ago
  > I used to do pro Bono professional work for a gifted organization. It was generally understood that a child with an extremely high IQ should be assessed at a young age to get the most accurate results. What a “gifted organization” has to say about IQ is not very convincing. There’s quite a big conflict of interest and bias in play. Afaik 6yo brains are literally missing mass and have a different structure than adults/teens. Of course this is just on average too because everyone develops at different rates. Not sure how a unitless number used in population level studies is going to help here. > This case being mishandled isn't proof kids should never be tested or assessed at an early age. Not what I’m talking about. Of course childhood education is important and assessment is part of that. IQ from what I’ve seen is not a useful tool for individual assessment/education.
  - DoreenMichele 3y ago
    The organization in question: http://www.tagfam.org/ http://www.tagfam.org/ The oldest set of email lists in existence for providing free support for the gifted community. At the time, they were trying to transition from a voluntary health and welfare organization to a tax deductible charity. I was invited to be lead moderator and a member of the board.
    - MichaelZuo 3y ago
      The parent does raise an interesting point though, how are we sure childhood IQ testing is not an indicator of early-bloomers instead of a genuine delta?
      - DoreenMichele 3y ago
        I already said there is a difference between testing and assessment and lots of pitfalls with such.
        MichaelZuo 3y ago
        Okay, how are we sure childhood IQ assessment, done completely correctly, is not an indicator of early-bloomers instead of a genuine delta?
        alistairSH 3y ago
        According to the Emory School of Medicine, IQ stabilizes around age 4 for most children (later for those who were born premature or had other significant health issues).[1] 1 - https://med.emory.edu/departments/pediatrics/divisions/neonatology/dpc/dev-iq-testing.html#:~:text=The%20average%20child%27s%20IQ%20is,who%20have%20significant%20health%20issues https://med.emory.edu/departments/pediatrics/divisions/neona....
        MichaelZuo 3y ago
neogodless 3y ago
I think a high IQ at a young age is indicative of raw processing power. They can keep things like shapes and numbers in their head and manipulate them correctly to pass the kind of spatial and mathematical questions you'll find on an IQ test. It won't tell you much about motivation and grit, though a 6 year old focusing on a test and trying to get it right gives you hints as well. Of course, from there, parenting, education, and especially the intrinsic processes of the individual themself will all influence what is done with that raw ability.
- groby_b 3y ago
  You'd be wrong. IQ assessments at the very least distinguish between verbal, reasoning, and short term memory (and often have more components) They're incredibly fraught when they're used well (there's reasonable criticism they mostly assess test taking ability), and it gets worse when you apply a simplified explanation like "raw processing power".
prepend 3y ago
I think it would be useful for tailoring education to interests and capabilities. In my country and state all children have some sort capabilities test, so I think the test says nothing much about the parents other than they participated in some system level testing and didn’t protest or remove their child from the test. There’s lots of study showing correlation of IQ with income [0] and other positive life outcomes. But I think it’s generally not a good idea to tell six year olds all this. In my own experience, the standardized tests included guidance about how not to reveal the information to children and why that wasn’t helpful. A few years later one of my children had a psychological evaluation that included IQ and it also included language about not revealing scores to the subject. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6526425/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6526425/
rthomas6 3y ago
> I find it very hard to believe an IQ test on a six year old is going to be much of a indicator of anything. It is, though. To a disturbing extent. Individual IQ scores predict career success more than any other single metric.
- anongraddebt 3y ago
  My understanding is that there is something like a Goldilocks part of the curve (e.g. 115-125) where you get above average intelligence and high motivation (‘hard working’).
- davemp 3y ago
  This is not true afaik. IQ has been shown to not be constant through development [0,1]. So while adult/college IQ scores have been correlated with success (equivalents are used university admissions after all). I am not aware of any studies/data sets that show a strong correlation of IQ as measured in six year olds and adult success. Also any study tracking IQ over time is going to have significant problems with goodhart's law. [0]: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/memory-medic/201805/no-your-iq-is-not-constant https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/memory-medic/201805/... [1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3672949/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3672949/

by davemp 3y ago

DoreenMichele 3y ago

I used to do pro bono professional work for a gifted organization. It was generally understood that a child with an extremely high IQ should be assessed at a young age to get the most accurate results. Though there is a difference between testing and assessment and lots of pitfalls with such and TFA doesn't give enough info to determine which he got. Some people assess kids young for all the right reasons. This case being mishandled isn't proof kids should never be tested or assessed at an early age.

davemp 3y ago
> I used to do pro Bono professional work for a gifted organization. It was generally understood that a child with an extremely high IQ should be assessed at a young age to get the most accurate results. What a “gifted organization” has to say about IQ is not very convincing. There’s quite a big conflict of interest and bias in play. Afaik 6yo brains are literally missing mass and have a different structure than adults/teens. Of course this is just on average too because everyone develops at different rates. Not sure how a unitless number used in population level studies is going to help here. > This case being mishandled isn't proof kids should never be tested or assessed at an early age. Not what I’m talking about. Of course childhood education is important and assessment is part of that. IQ from what I’ve seen is not a useful tool for individual assessment/education.
- DoreenMichele 3y ago
  The organization in question: http://www.tagfam.org/ http://www.tagfam.org/ The oldest set of email lists in existence for providing free support for the gifted community. At the time, they were trying to transition from a voluntary health and welfare organization to a tax deductible charity. I was invited to be lead moderator and a member of the board.
  - MichaelZuo 3y ago
    The parent does raise an interesting point though, how are we sure childhood IQ testing is not an indicator of early-bloomers instead of a genuine delta?
    - DoreenMichele 3y ago
      I already said there is a difference between testing and assessment and lots of pitfalls with such.
      - MichaelZuo 3y ago
        Okay, how are we sure childhood IQ assessment, done completely correctly, is not an indicator of early-bloomers instead of a genuine delta?
        alistairSH 3y ago
        According to the Emory School of Medicine, IQ stabilizes around age 4 for most children (later for those who were born premature or had other significant health issues).[1] 1 - https://med.emory.edu/departments/pediatrics/divisions/neonatology/dpc/dev-iq-testing.html#:~:text=The%20average%20child%27s%20IQ%20is,who%20have%20significant%20health%20issues https://med.emory.edu/departments/pediatrics/divisions/neona....
        MichaelZuo 3y ago

neogodless 3y ago

I think a high IQ at a young age is indicative of raw processing power. They can keep things like shapes and numbers in their head and manipulate them correctly to pass the kind of spatial and mathematical questions you'll find on an IQ test. It won't tell you much about motivation and grit, though a 6 year old focusing on a test and trying to get it right gives you hints as well. Of course, from there, parenting, education, and especially the intrinsic processes of the individual themself will all influence what is done with that raw ability.

groby_b 3y ago
You'd be wrong. IQ assessments at the very least distinguish between verbal, reasoning, and short term memory (and often have more components) They're incredibly fraught when they're used well (there's reasonable criticism they mostly assess test taking ability), and it gets worse when you apply a simplified explanation like "raw processing power".

prepend 3y ago

I think it would be useful for tailoring education to interests and capabilities. In my country and state all children have some sort capabilities test, so I think the test says nothing much about the parents other than they participated in some system level testing and didn’t protest or remove their child from the test. There’s lots of study showing correlation of IQ with income [0] and other positive life outcomes. But I think it’s generally not a good idea to tell six year olds all this. In my own experience, the standardized tests included guidance about how not to reveal the information to children and why that wasn’t helpful. A few years later one of my children had a psychological evaluation that included IQ and it also included language about not revealing scores to the subject. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6526425/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6526425/

rthomas6 3y ago

> I find it very hard to believe an IQ test on a six year old is going to be much of a indicator of anything. It is, though. To a disturbing extent. Individual IQ scores predict career success more than any other single metric.

anongraddebt 3y ago
My understanding is that there is something like a Goldilocks part of the curve (e.g. 115-125) where you get above average intelligence and high motivation (‘hard working’).
davemp 3y ago
This is not true afaik. IQ has been shown to not be constant through development [0,1]. So while adult/college IQ scores have been correlated with success (equivalents are used university admissions after all). I am not aware of any studies/data sets that show a strong correlation of IQ as measured in six year olds and adult success. Also any study tracking IQ over time is going to have significant problems with goodhart's law. [0]: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/memory-medic/201805/no-your-iq-is-not-constant https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/memory-medic/201805/... [1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3672949/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3672949/