6 ms·

What you've said is vague enough to be completely meaningless. Use relevant, specific words, rather than "stuff" and "organism", and it becomes quickly clear th

What you've said is vague enough to be completely meaningless. Use relevant, specific words, rather than "stuff" and "organism", and it becomes quickly clear that what you're saying is total nonsense. If someone has all their basic needs met, what mechanism would cause them to fail if they choose to produce more value (through labor) than the value required to meet their basic needs?

vel0city 4y ago
It's a pretty basic concept. > If someone has all their basic needs met So, plenty of stuff in, so they can produce value through labor. Reduce stuff in to no longer have their needs met and expect them to keep up that labor. Think that'll go on forever? If an organization only gives and never receives, it'll surely run out of stuff to give, won't it?
- kerkeslager 4y ago
  If someone has all their basic needs met, what mechanism would cause them to fail if they choose to produce more value (through labor) than the value required to meet their basic needs?
  - vel0city 4y ago
    If they're only getting just enough to subsist (has all their basic needs met), they probably don't have a lot of extra energy to produce more value. You need to eat to have energy to work, more so than just the bare minimum to live. They also probably won't be very effective at working if they only have the bare minimum to survive, since that doesn't include tools or places to actually work. If some people only had a few hundred calories to eat a day, a basic sleeping mat, and a simple roof over their heads their basic needs will be met and will continue living but they probably won't be very good at producing much additional value. They won't be good at forming a symphony, as they don't have any instruments. They won't be good building things, since they won't have hammers or nails or saws or wood or any other construction materials (those fall outside the "basic needs"). So you'd probably need more than just the "basic needs". And then once again, if they are expected to put out more than what they're getting in, they probably won't live very long. If you're only consuming a few hundred calories but putting out a couple thousand a day, you're not long for this world.
    - kerkeslager 4y ago
      > If they're only getting just enough to subsist (has all their basic needs met), they probably don't have a lot of extra energy to produce more value. You need to eat to have energy to work, more so than just the bare minimum to live. They also probably won't be very effective at working if they only have the bare minimum to survive, since that doesn't include tools or places to actually work. Let me rephrase since you're seemingly willfully missing the point: If someone has all their basic needs met plus enough to have energy, what mechanism would cause them to fail if they choose to produce more value (through labor) than the value required to meet their basic needs plus enough to have energy? > And then once again, if they are expected to put out more than what they're getting in, they probably won't live very long. If you're only consuming a few hundred calories but putting out a couple thousand a day, you're not long for this world. Input and output are obviously not measured in calories. Again it seems you're willfully missing the point. I live pretty frugally, and easily live on ~$30K/year. I have at points been paid $180K/year (annualized) for significant periods of time. If I chose to do the same amount of work as when I made $180K/year, live on $30K/year, and give away the other $150K/year in work, receiving no income for it, by what mechanism would I wither away and die?
      - vel0city 4y ago
        Let me rephrase since you're seemingly willfully missing the point: all your examples are clearly going above and beyond the basic needs. > I live pretty frugally, and easily live on ~$30K/year. I have at points been paid $180K/year (annualized) for significant periods of time. If I chose to do the same amount of work as when I made $180K/year, live on $30K/year, and give away the other $150K/year in work, receiving no income for it, by what mechanism would I wither away and die? So, clearly well above and beyond the basic needs, huh? I bet even the ~$30k/yr includes some amount of personal comforts, more than just the absolute bare minimum to survive? Probably meeting more than just the basic needs? Let me rephrase since you're seemingly willfully missing the point, if someone is only getting the basic needs, they don't have anything left to give. Because otherwise they'd inherently be getting more than the basic needs, by evidence of being able to give some away without being below the basic needs. Let me rephrase since you're seemingly willfully missing the point, if you need 5 units of something, and are given 5 units of something, how many units of something do you have left over to share? 5 - 5 = ??? And if you're given 7 or 8 of those units, clearly you were given more than just the basic need of 5, right? You're able to produce that labor because you at some point had more than the basic needs to survive. And if you continue to only get the basic needs to survive, you literally won't have the energy to do it anymore or you won't continue to have as useful of knowledge or have access to the computing for that labor or tools or what have you. Getting the tools for generating that value goes above the basic needs of survival. The same concept goes for that tool repair collective talked about in the sibling comment. If the organization isn't being refreshed with replacement parts for the broken tools or doesn't have a place to store things or doesn't have a place to work on stuff or energy to run a forge or what not, they won't be very effective at being a tool repair collective. Eventually the things they do have will fall apart and need "new" stuff to come in to keep it up. They'll need more than just having a small amount of food and a roof over their heads for the tool repair collective to be useful, more than just the basic needs of survival. If all I'm given is a 150sqft prison cell of an apartment with a toilet and a sink and a loaf of bread and some beans a day, I'll survive. My basic needs are met. I probably won't be able to start up a tool repair collective though, I can't run a forge on a loaf of bread. A sink isn't a useful hammer. I won't have any books to tell me how to actually build or use a forge. And I'll probably tire pretty quickly since I'll barely have any extra calories.

vel0city 4y ago

It's a pretty basic concept. > If someone has all their basic needs met So, plenty of stuff in, so they can produce value through labor. Reduce stuff in to no longer have their needs met and expect them to keep up that labor. Think that'll go on forever? If an organization only gives and never receives, it'll surely run out of stuff to give, won't it?

kerkeslager 4y ago
If someone has all their basic needs met, what mechanism would cause them to fail if they choose to produce more value (through labor) than the value required to meet their basic needs?
- vel0city 4y ago
  If they're only getting just enough to subsist (has all their basic needs met), they probably don't have a lot of extra energy to produce more value. You need to eat to have energy to work, more so than just the bare minimum to live. They also probably won't be very effective at working if they only have the bare minimum to survive, since that doesn't include tools or places to actually work. If some people only had a few hundred calories to eat a day, a basic sleeping mat, and a simple roof over their heads their basic needs will be met and will continue living but they probably won't be very good at producing much additional value. They won't be good at forming a symphony, as they don't have any instruments. They won't be good building things, since they won't have hammers or nails or saws or wood or any other construction materials (those fall outside the "basic needs"). So you'd probably need more than just the "basic needs". And then once again, if they are expected to put out more than what they're getting in, they probably won't live very long. If you're only consuming a few hundred calories but putting out a couple thousand a day, you're not long for this world.
  - kerkeslager 4y ago
    > If they're only getting just enough to subsist (has all their basic needs met), they probably don't have a lot of extra energy to produce more value. You need to eat to have energy to work, more so than just the bare minimum to live. They also probably won't be very effective at working if they only have the bare minimum to survive, since that doesn't include tools or places to actually work. Let me rephrase since you're seemingly willfully missing the point: If someone has all their basic needs met plus enough to have energy, what mechanism would cause them to fail if they choose to produce more value (through labor) than the value required to meet their basic needs plus enough to have energy? > And then once again, if they are expected to put out more than what they're getting in, they probably won't live very long. If you're only consuming a few hundred calories but putting out a couple thousand a day, you're not long for this world. Input and output are obviously not measured in calories. Again it seems you're willfully missing the point. I live pretty frugally, and easily live on ~$30K/year. I have at points been paid $180K/year (annualized) for significant periods of time. If I chose to do the same amount of work as when I made $180K/year, live on $30K/year, and give away the other $150K/year in work, receiving no income for it, by what mechanism would I wither away and die?
    - vel0city 4y ago
      Let me rephrase since you're seemingly willfully missing the point: all your examples are clearly going above and beyond the basic needs. > I live pretty frugally, and easily live on ~$30K/year. I have at points been paid $180K/year (annualized) for significant periods of time. If I chose to do the same amount of work as when I made $180K/year, live on $30K/year, and give away the other $150K/year in work, receiving no income for it, by what mechanism would I wither away and die? So, clearly well above and beyond the basic needs, huh? I bet even the ~$30k/yr includes some amount of personal comforts, more than just the absolute bare minimum to survive? Probably meeting more than just the basic needs? Let me rephrase since you're seemingly willfully missing the point, if someone is only getting the basic needs, they don't have anything left to give. Because otherwise they'd inherently be getting more than the basic needs, by evidence of being able to give some away without being below the basic needs. Let me rephrase since you're seemingly willfully missing the point, if you need 5 units of something, and are given 5 units of something, how many units of something do you have left over to share? 5 - 5 = ??? And if you're given 7 or 8 of those units, clearly you were given more than just the basic need of 5, right? You're able to produce that labor because you at some point had more than the basic needs to survive. And if you continue to only get the basic needs to survive, you literally won't have the energy to do it anymore or you won't continue to have as useful of knowledge or have access to the computing for that labor or tools or what have you. Getting the tools for generating that value goes above the basic needs of survival. The same concept goes for that tool repair collective talked about in the sibling comment. If the organization isn't being refreshed with replacement parts for the broken tools or doesn't have a place to store things or doesn't have a place to work on stuff or energy to run a forge or what not, they won't be very effective at being a tool repair collective. Eventually the things they do have will fall apart and need "new" stuff to come in to keep it up. They'll need more than just having a small amount of food and a roof over their heads for the tool repair collective to be useful, more than just the basic needs of survival. If all I'm given is a 150sqft prison cell of an apartment with a toilet and a sink and a loaf of bread and some beans a day, I'll survive. My basic needs are met. I probably won't be able to start up a tool repair collective though, I can't run a forge on a loaf of bread. A sink isn't a useful hammer. I won't have any books to tell me how to actually build or use a forge. And I'll probably tire pretty quickly since I'll barely have any extra calories.