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> The bias problem is also relatively easy to solve (Midjourney has already made massive improvements), One thing that everyone seems to ignore these days are

> The bias problem is also relatively easy to solve (Midjourney has already made massive improvements), One thing that everyone seems to ignore these days are that certain settings are inherently not diverse. Until I was about 12 I didn't see non white people in real life except on holidays and once when I followed a relative who visited a refugee family. Not because we avoided them, but because they weren't there. Background: The country I lived as a child in didn't have a recent (last ~900-1000 years) history with keeping slaves and only recently experienced high living standards so there were few immigrants too. In the large district I grew up I am aware of two non western groups until the Balkan wars in the 90ies: a single middle eastern guy who I can't recall meeting and a southern American family who I only started meeting after I changed school at some point. For me, it is annoying that people insist that all pictures include some non-Europeans, because reality is not like that everwhere. I imagine the same is maybe even more true for African or Asian communities.

Al-Khwarizmi 4y ago
Yeah, same experience here. In Spain there is a character in child mythology (one of the Santa Claus analogues, who bring gifts from children) who is black. I remember that when I was a kid in the 80s, he used to be portrayed by a white man painted black, what Americans call "blackface", but for purely practical reasons: no one was black. Perhaps in big cities there were some, I don't know, but in many places in the country you would live your life without ever seeing a black person outside of TV. Just as you say, we didn't have a past of slavery and at that point the country wasn't rich enough to be an immigration magnet, we did have some immigration from Morocco but Moroccans aren't black. Now it's very different, of course, and we do have enough black people that that character can be portrayed more realistically :)
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > Yeah, same experience here. In Spain there is a character in child mythology (one of the Santa Claus analogues, who bring gifts from children) who is black. I would assume a somewhat close analog, since Saint Nicholas (the name source, if only a small part of the overall inspiration, of the “Santa Claus” figure) is, in one major tradition of, I believe, Italian origin, typically depicted as very dark-skinned (probably originally as a sign of foreignness rather than literal racial blackness; as he was geographically from Asia Minor and apparently of Greek ethnicity.)
- vasco 4y ago
  > in Spain > Just as you say, we didn't have a past of slavery Spain (together with Portugal) were the first to invent "put people in boats and ship them across the Atlantic" type of slave trade and had large numbers of slaves in their colonies. And as with all other European countries that had big boats, they also brought many slaves back to Spain itself. For hundreds of years. Also calling blackface "practical because there are no black people around" is missing the point of why people don't like blackface. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Spain https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Spain
  - hoseja 4y ago
    The only innovation there is the "Atlantic" part. Stop pretending like it was something new and uniquely horrible.
    - ben_w 4y ago
      I think the criticism here is that Iberian history is not uniquely better rather than claiming it's uniquely worse. (I'm British, so I'm not going to claim less-awful-than-thou against any nation).
    - vasco 4y ago
      If you agree with that innovation, you also seem to agree with me that the spanish were in fact involved with slavery, as opposed to what the person I replied to said. Not sure where you saw me "pretend" about anything, I just presented facts and a wikipedia article.
  - Al-Khwarizmi 4y ago
    Yeah, my wording was definitely too general. There was slavery in Spain, my intended meaning was that there was no systematic enslavement of black people but there is definitely a chasm between what was in my brain and what I actually wrote, so I stand corrected. Regarding blackface, what do you suggest to do, then, if there is a tradition of someone portraying a character (whom children believe in) that happens to be black, if there are no black people at all to do it?
garte 4y ago
I get what you mean and I had a similar experience growing up. But: I think that they were there. We just didn't see them a lot. They were cleaning, working in factories, tending gardens, looking after children etc. but they were not represented and thus were not visible. Of course they were a minority, but I'd wager they were there. Upwards social mobility and thus equality is only possible with recognition and representation. Without "being in pictures" they don't exist. That's why pictures should include "Non-Europeans" (this expression in itself is very problematic btw: there is no "European" as something biologically inherent in a person).
- MarcoZavala 4y ago
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- MarcoZavala 4y ago
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- Filligree 4y ago
  > But: I think that they were there. We just didn't see them a lot. They were cleaning, working in factories, tending gardens, looking after children etc. but they were not represented and thus were not visible. Of course they were a minority, but I'd wager they were there. No, they genuinely weren't there. Europeans regularly tried to move to my hometown, got depressed/sick from the lack of sunlight in winter, and left. Refugees coming from further south had it... worse. Northern Norway isn't a place outsiders can easily move into. At least, not without installing grow lights in their living room...
- skinkestek 4y ago
  I think I can assure you they weren't there. There was a lot of noise a few years ago about a Norwegian band[1] who had a song "Neger på Ål stasjon"[2] ("Black man on Ål train station") describing the fascination of the author first time they actually saw a black person in their hometown. I'm not from Ål at all[3](although I have visited it) but I can verify the feeling. Black people were very much excotic were I came from too, and if one of them had shown up we would probably have discussed it at school next day, wondering if they could speak our local language etc. Edit: I should add that we had nothing against black people. A couple of stories to show what I mean: forsome reason we often ended up next to a black family at camping, and I remember my dad and their dad being friends and he took built a toy boat with us once and another time I met a black boy at my age at the beach who was actually from Africa (the first family was from somewhere in Europe) and I was existed that I had met someone from Africa and it was the first time I can remember using English for real. [1]: Hellbillies, awesome sound and some interesting texts BTW [2]: It is a very respectful song [3]: Norwegians might find this funny as "Ål" and English "all" is pronounced about the same way (of course depending on how thick their "L"-s are.

Al-Khwarizmi 4y ago

Yeah, same experience here. In Spain there is a character in child mythology (one of the Santa Claus analogues, who bring gifts from children) who is black. I remember that when I was a kid in the 80s, he used to be portrayed by a white man painted black, what Americans call "blackface", but for purely practical reasons: no one was black. Perhaps in big cities there were some, I don't know, but in many places in the country you would live your life without ever seeing a black person outside of TV. Just as you say, we didn't have a past of slavery and at that point the country wasn't rich enough to be an immigration magnet, we did have some immigration from Morocco but Moroccans aren't black. Now it's very different, of course, and we do have enough black people that that character can be portrayed more realistically :)

dragonwriter 4y ago
> Yeah, same experience here. In Spain there is a character in child mythology (one of the Santa Claus analogues, who bring gifts from children) who is black. I would assume a somewhat close analog, since Saint Nicholas (the name source, if only a small part of the overall inspiration, of the “Santa Claus” figure) is, in one major tradition of, I believe, Italian origin, typically depicted as very dark-skinned (probably originally as a sign of foreignness rather than literal racial blackness; as he was geographically from Asia Minor and apparently of Greek ethnicity.)
vasco 4y ago
> in Spain > Just as you say, we didn't have a past of slavery Spain (together with Portugal) were the first to invent "put people in boats and ship them across the Atlantic" type of slave trade and had large numbers of slaves in their colonies. And as with all other European countries that had big boats, they also brought many slaves back to Spain itself. For hundreds of years. Also calling blackface "practical because there are no black people around" is missing the point of why people don't like blackface. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Spain https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Spain
- hoseja 4y ago
  The only innovation there is the "Atlantic" part. Stop pretending like it was something new and uniquely horrible.
  - ben_w 4y ago
    I think the criticism here is that Iberian history is not uniquely better rather than claiming it's uniquely worse. (I'm British, so I'm not going to claim less-awful-than-thou against any nation).
  - vasco 4y ago
    If you agree with that innovation, you also seem to agree with me that the spanish were in fact involved with slavery, as opposed to what the person I replied to said. Not sure where you saw me "pretend" about anything, I just presented facts and a wikipedia article.
- Al-Khwarizmi 4y ago
  Yeah, my wording was definitely too general. There was slavery in Spain, my intended meaning was that there was no systematic enslavement of black people but there is definitely a chasm between what was in my brain and what I actually wrote, so I stand corrected. Regarding blackface, what do you suggest to do, then, if there is a tradition of someone portraying a character (whom children believe in) that happens to be black, if there are no black people at all to do it?

garte 4y ago

I get what you mean and I had a similar experience growing up. But: I think that they were there. We just didn't see them a lot. They were cleaning, working in factories, tending gardens, looking after children etc. but they were not represented and thus were not visible. Of course they were a minority, but I'd wager they were there. Upwards social mobility and thus equality is only possible with recognition and representation. Without "being in pictures" they don't exist. That's why pictures should include "Non-Europeans" (this expression in itself is very problematic btw: there is no "European" as something biologically inherent in a person).

MarcoZavala 4y ago
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MarcoZavala 4y ago
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Filligree 4y ago
> But: I think that they were there. We just didn't see them a lot. They were cleaning, working in factories, tending gardens, looking after children etc. but they were not represented and thus were not visible. Of course they were a minority, but I'd wager they were there. No, they genuinely weren't there. Europeans regularly tried to move to my hometown, got depressed/sick from the lack of sunlight in winter, and left. Refugees coming from further south had it... worse. Northern Norway isn't a place outsiders can easily move into. At least, not without installing grow lights in their living room...
skinkestek 4y ago
I think I can assure you they weren't there. There was a lot of noise a few years ago about a Norwegian band[1] who had a song "Neger på Ål stasjon"[2] ("Black man on Ål train station") describing the fascination of the author first time they actually saw a black person in their hometown. I'm not from Ål at all[3](although I have visited it) but I can verify the feeling. Black people were very much excotic were I came from too, and if one of them had shown up we would probably have discussed it at school next day, wondering if they could speak our local language etc. Edit: I should add that we had nothing against black people. A couple of stories to show what I mean: forsome reason we often ended up next to a black family at camping, and I remember my dad and their dad being friends and he took built a toy boat with us once and another time I met a black boy at my age at the beach who was actually from Africa (the first family was from somewhere in Europe) and I was existed that I had met someone from Africa and it was the first time I can remember using English for real. [1]: Hellbillies, awesome sound and some interesting texts BTW [2]: It is a very respectful song [3]: Norwegians might find this funny as "Ål" and English "all" is pronounced about the same way (of course depending on how thick their "L"-s are.