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Several billion dollars is the minimum initial investment cost to compete in this space, to deal with all the patents and legal and regulatory to make your own

Several billion dollars is the minimum initial investment cost to compete in this space, to deal with all the patents and legal and regulatory to make your own phone with its own marketplace. If I don't use an iPhone my non-technical family members can't conveniently share photos with me the only way they know how. My friends can't AirDrop me videos. Apple has ensured its products won't interop well with non-Apple products.

pb7 3y ago
It's not abusive to build really good experiences for your customers and it's not a mystery why they don't waste their resources developing for the competition.
scarface74 3y ago
It doesn’t take “billions” of dollars to become an Android OEM and use AOSP.
- techdragon 3y ago
  How much does it take? I’ve pondered this a few times over the years for various business ideas, so yeah, I’m genuinely asking in a non snarky way… what does it cost to do an OEM phone ?
  - brookst 3y ago
    Millions, if you're willing to work with a Chinese manufacturer and just load your firmware on a relatively generic phone.
    - techdragon 3y ago
      Still pretty pricy, but it’s a lower bar than most people probably think it is if the comments here are anything to go by. Does make me wonder if there’s anyone out there playing middleman and doing a white label service at an even lower price point, they eyeball the market for design trends and OEM some generic phone designs and then sell them on to smaller shops like small MVNOs that don’t have a few million to spare doing a complete OEM phone of their own.
      - scarface74 3y ago
        There have been white label phone manufactures since the original Windows CE based phones. HTC use to manufacture close to 80% of Windows CE phones sold by different brands. https://www.fiercewireless.com/developer/htc-to-shed-white-label https://www.fiercewireless.com/developer/htc-to-shed-white-l...
  - scarface74 3y ago
    I guess more precisely I should say it doesn’t take “much” money to be an Android ODM/OEM and ship with AOSP. https://us.nuumobile.com/android-oems-vs-odms-5-things-you-should-know/ https://us.nuumobile.com/android-oems-vs-odms-5-things-you-s... I’m referring to the millions and of course cost per unit go down depending on how many units you commit to. The hardest part is dealing with manufacturers and suppliers. In the US, building phones this way is not as popular as building vertical market hardware for kiosks and special putouse devices. You choose your screen size. memory, SOC etc. It’s been awhile. But I spent a few years working in field services during the transition from companies using Windows CE to Android for industrial ruggedized devices.
- Spivak 3y ago
  But the result will suck. Sure you can do it but you'll be competing against Apple and Samsung who have invested billions and have the results to show for it. And you'll also end up as a system integrator because millions doesn't buy you your own chips so you'll be at the whim of the other companies investing billions like Qualcomm.
  - scarface74 3y ago
    Everyone is at the whim of Qualcomm - including Apple. The only two companies that aren’t just integrators are Apple and Samsung yet there are dozens of Android Manufacturers.
brookst 3y ago
...and it hasn't occurred to you to wonder why all of your friends want Apple devices? There'a a lot to dislike about Apple. But your friends know that airdrop will always work between each other. If Merlin appeared and made airdrop interoperable with your device... Your friends would leave Apple, because all of those experiences would become as fragmented and unreliable as open ecosystems are. 100% cool to hate Apple and wish regulatory doom on them. But don't think that Apple customers will be thankful. They will move to the next closed ecosystem that offers vertical integration and better UX. Because that's what they want.
- danparsonson 3y ago
  I think it has a lot to do with costly signalling - Apple has focused on being the luxury option. That's what a lot of people really want; the closed ecosystem and UX are secondary concerns.
  - scarface74 3y ago
    How is something a “luxury” that is owned by over 50% of the American market? Since it is easy to pay for a phone on an installment plan, anyone making $15-$20 a hour can pay for one with two hours a month. Even your typical fast food restaurant has to pay that much these days to attract workers.
    - lexhart 3y ago
      It's luxury in the financial sense because it's one of the expensive options compared to the competition. Someone making 20 dollar can also afford to eat caviar, that doesn't make it mainstream. Apple just made sure that it's spoons, forks and plates only accept caviar and not cereal or lasagna.
      - scarface74 3y ago
        If I walk into a store and buy the average Android phone for $300 on a no interest 24 month installment plan from T-mobile , I will be paying $12/month. If I buy a midrange iPhone 13, it’s $24.95 a month. That’s not even mentioning an iPhone SE that is still faster than high end Android phones for $429 or $17.95 a month. And that “luxury” iPhone 8 (circa 2018) will have a better resale value and will get OS update for years still runs the latest OS and the iPhone 5s (circa 2013) has had a security update in the last year.
ubermonkey 3y ago
>My friends can't AirDrop me videos. So? There are ample ways to share a video that aren't based on single-platform features. If Apple invents a way to do some thing X between two of its users, that's great. That's a platform advantage. There's no legal or moral standing that allows us to insist that they open that to other platforms.

pb7 3y ago

It's not abusive to build really good experiences for your customers and it's not a mystery why they don't waste their resources developing for the competition.

scarface74 3y ago

It doesn’t take “billions” of dollars to become an Android OEM and use AOSP.

techdragon 3y ago
How much does it take? I’ve pondered this a few times over the years for various business ideas, so yeah, I’m genuinely asking in a non snarky way… what does it cost to do an OEM phone ?
- brookst 3y ago
  Millions, if you're willing to work with a Chinese manufacturer and just load your firmware on a relatively generic phone.
  - techdragon 3y ago
    Still pretty pricy, but it’s a lower bar than most people probably think it is if the comments here are anything to go by. Does make me wonder if there’s anyone out there playing middleman and doing a white label service at an even lower price point, they eyeball the market for design trends and OEM some generic phone designs and then sell them on to smaller shops like small MVNOs that don’t have a few million to spare doing a complete OEM phone of their own.
    - scarface74 3y ago
      There have been white label phone manufactures since the original Windows CE based phones. HTC use to manufacture close to 80% of Windows CE phones sold by different brands. https://www.fiercewireless.com/developer/htc-to-shed-white-label https://www.fiercewireless.com/developer/htc-to-shed-white-l...
- scarface74 3y ago
  I guess more precisely I should say it doesn’t take “much” money to be an Android ODM/OEM and ship with AOSP. https://us.nuumobile.com/android-oems-vs-odms-5-things-you-should-know/ https://us.nuumobile.com/android-oems-vs-odms-5-things-you-s... I’m referring to the millions and of course cost per unit go down depending on how many units you commit to. The hardest part is dealing with manufacturers and suppliers. In the US, building phones this way is not as popular as building vertical market hardware for kiosks and special putouse devices. You choose your screen size. memory, SOC etc. It’s been awhile. But I spent a few years working in field services during the transition from companies using Windows CE to Android for industrial ruggedized devices.
Spivak 3y ago
But the result will suck. Sure you can do it but you'll be competing against Apple and Samsung who have invested billions and have the results to show for it. And you'll also end up as a system integrator because millions doesn't buy you your own chips so you'll be at the whim of the other companies investing billions like Qualcomm.
- scarface74 3y ago
  Everyone is at the whim of Qualcomm - including Apple. The only two companies that aren’t just integrators are Apple and Samsung yet there are dozens of Android Manufacturers.

brookst 3y ago

...and it hasn't occurred to you to wonder why all of your friends want Apple devices? There'a a lot to dislike about Apple. But your friends know that airdrop will always work between each other. If Merlin appeared and made airdrop interoperable with your device... Your friends would leave Apple, because all of those experiences would become as fragmented and unreliable as open ecosystems are. 100% cool to hate Apple and wish regulatory doom on them. But don't think that Apple customers will be thankful. They will move to the next closed ecosystem that offers vertical integration and better UX. Because that's what they want.

danparsonson 3y ago
I think it has a lot to do with costly signalling - Apple has focused on being the luxury option. That's what a lot of people really want; the closed ecosystem and UX are secondary concerns.
- scarface74 3y ago
  How is something a “luxury” that is owned by over 50% of the American market? Since it is easy to pay for a phone on an installment plan, anyone making $15-$20 a hour can pay for one with two hours a month. Even your typical fast food restaurant has to pay that much these days to attract workers.
  - lexhart 3y ago
    It's luxury in the financial sense because it's one of the expensive options compared to the competition. Someone making 20 dollar can also afford to eat caviar, that doesn't make it mainstream. Apple just made sure that it's spoons, forks and plates only accept caviar and not cereal or lasagna.
    - scarface74 3y ago
      If I walk into a store and buy the average Android phone for $300 on a no interest 24 month installment plan from T-mobile , I will be paying $12/month. If I buy a midrange iPhone 13, it’s $24.95 a month. That’s not even mentioning an iPhone SE that is still faster than high end Android phones for $429 or $17.95 a month. And that “luxury” iPhone 8 (circa 2018) will have a better resale value and will get OS update for years still runs the latest OS and the iPhone 5s (circa 2013) has had a security update in the last year.

ubermonkey 3y ago

>My friends can't AirDrop me videos. So? There are ample ways to share a video that aren't based on single-platform features. If Apple invents a way to do some thing X between two of its users, that's great. That's a platform advantage. There's no legal or moral standing that allows us to insist that they open that to other platforms.