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>(I exclude Eastern or specifically Japanese companies from the statement above because I don’t know enough about them to comment; Deming’s influence is largest

>(I exclude Eastern or specifically Japanese companies from the statement above because I don’t know enough about them to comment; Deming’s influence is largest in Japan. Perhaps they’re operationally rigorous, wonderful places to work? I don’t know enough to say, but I intend to find out.) Now that would be interesting - as far as I know, the Japanese government has issues keeping companies from being literally murderously exploitative. There's even a term for death by overwork in Japanese; karoshi. Of course, not having first-have knowledge, I don't know if that's an accurate view of the situation there.

deleted 3y ago
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gwern 3y ago
But does it have anything to do with Deming? Korea, for example, is as bad, and maybe worse given their alcohol culture; they just don't get any cutesy terms like 'karoshi'. Or consider this recent followup about a famous American bonsai master who learned in Japan, and learned such brutal lessons from his master that he's driven away all would-be American apprentices: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/11/21/the-beautiful-brutal-world-of-bonsai https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/11/21/the-beautiful-... Are we going to blame bonsai on Deming now?
- nyanpasu64 3y ago
  I hope to someday create a world where people are valued for the love they can bring to those around them, and not beaten or psychologically abused (like this story or my upbringing) for failing to bring enough value to those in power. I'm not doing well enough to create safe living conditions for myself, let alone those I care about.
  - dxdm 3y ago
    Awareness is an important step. If you haven't found them already, maybe there are groups of people who are (or were) in similar situations that can lend some support. It's always better to not go the hard walks alone.
nine_k 3y ago
I'm not an expert, but as far as I understand, it's not that the management of Japanese corporations forces their employees explicitly, quashing their protests, in the style of labor vs capital struggle in Europe in 19th century. Instead it's more about peer pressure and self-representation. It's more like fashion among teenagers: they try their hardest to look cool, fashionable, and trendy, even though nobody (and not their parents or teachers in particular) enforce it. But they badly want to look cool, and feel bad if they don't, and their peers look down on them. The same way employees just don't leave before their boss leaves, not because their boss orders them to, but because they'd feel silly and rude if they did so, and their peers might sneer at them. Of course the management does use this to their benefit, and does cultivate these views, again, without outwardly forcing anyone's hand, or even being hypocrites. The management just behaves the same towards their own bosses.
- soared 3y ago
  This is true to some degree but it’s extended out beyond that. Many apartments for young workers have effectively non-existent kitchens, fridges, etc. It’s common to leave work “late”, eat on the way home, then wake up “early” and eat on the way to work. This is cultural but is a cause and affect of the work culture.
- psychoslave 3y ago
  >Instead it's more about peer pressure and self-representation. It's more like fashion among teenagers: they try their hardest to look cool, fashionable, and trendy, even though nobody (and not their parents or teachers in particular) enforce it. I’m not sure I understand you here. How can peer pressure be stated as "nobody enforce it"?
  - nine_k 3y ago
    Nobody formally enforces it, there's no written rule in the company. Bosses do not order their reports to show up before the official hours, or leave past them.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

gwern 3y ago

But does it have anything to do with Deming? Korea, for example, is as bad, and maybe worse given their alcohol culture; they just don't get any cutesy terms like 'karoshi'. Or consider this recent followup about a famous American bonsai master who learned in Japan, and learned such brutal lessons from his master that he's driven away all would-be American apprentices: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/11/21/the-beautiful-brutal-world-of-bonsai https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/11/21/the-beautiful-... Are we going to blame bonsai on Deming now?

nyanpasu64 3y ago
I hope to someday create a world where people are valued for the love they can bring to those around them, and not beaten or psychologically abused (like this story or my upbringing) for failing to bring enough value to those in power. I'm not doing well enough to create safe living conditions for myself, let alone those I care about.
- dxdm 3y ago
  Awareness is an important step. If you haven't found them already, maybe there are groups of people who are (or were) in similar situations that can lend some support. It's always better to not go the hard walks alone.

nine_k 3y ago

I'm not an expert, but as far as I understand, it's not that the management of Japanese corporations forces their employees explicitly, quashing their protests, in the style of labor vs capital struggle in Europe in 19th century. Instead it's more about peer pressure and self-representation. It's more like fashion among teenagers: they try their hardest to look cool, fashionable, and trendy, even though nobody (and not their parents or teachers in particular) enforce it. But they badly want to look cool, and feel bad if they don't, and their peers look down on them. The same way employees just don't leave before their boss leaves, not because their boss orders them to, but because they'd feel silly and rude if they did so, and their peers might sneer at them. Of course the management does use this to their benefit, and does cultivate these views, again, without outwardly forcing anyone's hand, or even being hypocrites. The management just behaves the same towards their own bosses.

soared 3y ago
This is true to some degree but it’s extended out beyond that. Many apartments for young workers have effectively non-existent kitchens, fridges, etc. It’s common to leave work “late”, eat on the way home, then wake up “early” and eat on the way to work. This is cultural but is a cause and affect of the work culture.
psychoslave 3y ago
>Instead it's more about peer pressure and self-representation. It's more like fashion among teenagers: they try their hardest to look cool, fashionable, and trendy, even though nobody (and not their parents or teachers in particular) enforce it. I’m not sure I understand you here. How can peer pressure be stated as "nobody enforce it"?
- nine_k 3y ago
  Nobody formally enforces it, there's no written rule in the company. Bosses do not order their reports to show up before the official hours, or leave past them.