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> They’re surprised to learn that Snapchat’s AI knows their location, for example, and can use that information in its responses, even if they’re not sharing th
by sieste 3y ago
> They’re surprised to learn that Snapchat’s AI knows their location, for example, and can use that information in its responses, even if they’re not sharing their location on the Snap Map. In a way, the AI bot is surfacing the level of personal data collection that social media companies do in the background, and putting it directly in front of the consumer. As it turns out, that’s not a great selling point
So the 1 star is for inducing cognitive dissonance. I shall not be reminded that you know where I am and what I do 24/7!
- parker_mountain 3y agoI wouldn't say it's cognitive dissonance, but rather, it's people becoming informed that their (implied) privacy choices aren't being respected. The (albeit false) implication, is that when you're not sharing your location, /you're not sharing your location/. These people likely believe that their location is private and only used when they /explicitly/ enable location sharing features. To us, that's obvious - to the lay person, it's not. It's an extremely common (and gross) dark pattern.
- xiphias2 3y ago,,To us, that's obvious'' I'm not so sure. I'm completely unable to keep in mind the amount of companies that get my data and what data they are getting, when they are getting / using it, and how. It's not just out of control, but impossible to even imagine.
- justinclift 3y agoHow did you get yourself into that state?
- ehnto 3y agoBy browsing the web probably.
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y agoYou don't get into that state, it's the default result of being tracked as surreptitiously as companies can get away with.
- justinclift 3y agoDunno about that. Seems like the kind of thing where people would have to be using services that explicitly do that crap. eg Google, Facebook, etc. People not using those services seem to be doing ok. :)
- Ar-Curunir 3y agoer do you not use a search engine?
- justinclift 3y agoDuck Duck Go, and now sometimes Kagi
- pmoriarty 3y agoHow could a user of these services know that they're not being tracked when using them? We only have their word to go on, and absolutely no way to verify, afaik.
- justinclift 3y agoThat's a decent point. But are you saying there's no difference between known bad actors (Google, FB, etc) and DDG / Kagi?
- Mossly 3y agoHubris aside, it was established as early as 2008 that Facebook collects data on non-users for so called 'shadow profiles.' Zuckerberg himself indirectly confirmed this: https://web.archive.org/web/20211006190710/https://www.getrevue.co/profile/caseynewton/issues/the-data-facebook-collects-without-permission-106802 https://web.archive.org/web/20211006190710/https://www.getre...
- episteme 3y agoIs this a genuine question? To ask this must mean you either don't realise all the tracking that is happening via your phone and web browsing unless you explicitly block it or you explicitly block every possible opportunity to be tracked and put continuous effort into staying anonymous. In the case of the latter, you know the answer because it would simply be not spending that time and effort, which isn't the top priority of most people, nor should it be.
- npteljes 3y agoBy existing in this current era. Facebook, for example, has been found to keep profiles on people who are not yet registered in their service. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_profile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_profile
- unethical_ban 3y agoHow is it obvious? Other than nebulously creepy ads about conversations I have. How and why did an app on my phone know my location without me providing it?
- vasco 3y agoIf you use any phone with a SIM card that is connected to a tower just for signal, not even data, you're already trackable. You can go up to application level, but the house of cards starts crumbling from cell towers first.
- unethical_ban 3y agoRight, but apps should not have that data. If location is not enabled, or is not permitted for that application, they shouldn't have that data. IP addresses are a thing of course, and VPNs can help marginally but not entirely.
- jacquesm 3y agoThe degree of precision that can be achieved using this data over a longer period of time is uncanny.
- rtpg 3y agoA cell tower could be used to triangulate your position, but we're talking about an iOS app not being run by your phone company. This is why we have security features in iOS, at least in theory! If you do not have location sharing enabled, how could a company running an app know about you? I can think of things like - the cell phone company is selling your location info to the company, that has your phone number via SMS - Guessing based on EXIF data from previous posts and previous location service usage ("you're probably where you always are") Is there something else I'm missing? The point here is we are talking about an app on your phone (not some Apple service or the phone company) knowing where you are
- thalassophobia 3y agoDon't forget about the IP address.
- HarHarVeryFunny 3y agoKids are taught about online safety. To them it feels creepy when some app knows their location when they have disabled location tacking, and rightly so. Very poor decision by Snap for a product marketed for kids.
- onepointsixC 3y agoI imagine that brazenly lying about it doesn't help.
- hooverd 3y agoIf they turned off the "share my location" feature a less informed person might even believe that Snapchat wasn't collecting their location, because why would they if they're not sharing it?
- kenjackson 3y agoSharing and using location are different things. Like I expect to be able to use my address book with my phone app, but the app sharing it seems like a completely different use case.
- mattigames 3y agoThe chat interface shows the AI like another friend you chat with, and the share-location feature is specifically to share the location with friends, so its perfectly logical to believe that not sharing location includes not sharing it with the AI.
- ssss11 3y agoSo maybe all those people shouting that “everyone accepted giving their data away” are actually full of sh*
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y agoOf course they are. I'm pretty evangelical about data privacy, and pretty much every layperson to which I've explained how much data companies like Snap and Meta have on them, they tend to be surprised and disturbed by the extent of it. It's abundantly clear to me that most people just don't grasp the extent of data collection that's happening. One of the most common misconceptions is that they'll think the only data that's collected is what they do in the app itself. Which is nonsense of course.
- arecurrence 3y agoCanada used to have a Manufacturer's Tax that was hidden to consumers in the price of goods they purchased. A Prime Minister came along with a Finance Minister who strongly believed that Canadians should see where their money was going. So they took that Manufacturer's Tax and turned it into a highly visible revenue neutral replacement called the Goods and Services Tax. People were furious about the GST. His government lost the next election by a landslide. All because someone thought people should see where their money was going.
- alephxyz 3y agoOr perhaps because it was poorly implemented and made it harder for customers to know what their total would be before reaching the cash register.
- nohaydeprobleme 3y agoThis is interesting, but after further research, the history looks a bit more complicated. From an article published in the Canadian Tax Journal, written by an attorney [1]: "The GST was introduced in 1991 as a 7 percent VAT, replacing the federal sales tax (FST). The FST was a manufacturers’ sales tax, which applied at 13.5 percent at the wholesale level to a limited number of goods and which was almost entirely invisible to consumers. "The GST applies to most supplies of property and services in Canada, and is imposed on the purchaser. The key feature that makes it a VAT is that most businesses can claim refunds, by way of input tax credit, for most or all of the GST that they pay on purchases." In addition, a Government of Canada publication also explains that GST does not apply to exports, in contrast to its predecessor [2]: "The GST is a sales tax which applies to final consumption at a fixed rate of 7%. Whereas the former FST was a hidden tax on the manufacture of goods, including those exported for foreign consumption, the GST is a visible tax on the value added at each stage of production and distribution of goods and services – which makes it a multi-stage tax – and applies only to consumption within Canada." ~~ In summary, there were other differences between GST and its predecessor. GST has applied to only consumption within Canada, whereas the former FST also applied to exports. Also, GST was paid directly by customers, rather than by companies (who had the option of making customers pay). It's possible that in many cases, customers ended up paying the same total amount after GST's introduction—in cases where companies may have lowered their prices to offset the new final total price due to the GST. But in other cases, it's plausible that companies kept their prices the same or didn't lower prices completely offset the tax, leading to increased prices on necessary goods and services for customers. In the end, according to analysts and newspaper columnists years later [3] [4], people with backgrounds in economics concluded that GST was good for Canada's economy, as the change provided a simplification of the taxation system that encouraged investment. But this positive effect is a bit different, though related to your comment: it looks like the positive effects of GST were largely based on encouraging investment, rather than based on the principle of transparency to consumers. These were interesting reads, though; thanks for raising the discussion. ~~ Sources: [1] Canadian Tax Journal: https://ctf.ca//ctfweb/Documents/PDF/2009ctj/09ctj4-policy.pdf https://ctf.ca//ctfweb/Documents/PDF/2009ctj/09ctj4-policy.p... [2] Government of Canada: https://publications.gc.ca/Collection-R/LoPBdP/BP/prb0003-e.htm#:~:text=Whereas%20the%20former%20FST%20was,only%20to%20consumption%20within%20Canada https://publications.gc.ca/Collection-R/LoPBdP/BP/prb0003-e..... [3] The Globe and Mail: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/the-gst-hated-by-many-stands-the-test-of-time/article560699/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/the-gst-hated-by-man... [4] CBC News: https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/gst-not-all-that-bad-say-tax-pros-1.772859 https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/gst-not-all-that-bad-say-ta...
- markstos 3y agoSnap started sharing location data with a new third party, OpenAI, for what should be an optional feature without asking users if they wanted to share location data with OpenAI.
- vineyardmike 3y agoI’m guessing they don’t freely share the data, and instead share it incidentally as needed for a query initiated by the user. So I’m guessing some lawyer will say this is legal, and some PM will think it’s consent and some SDE will say they’re told the user gave permission and now it exists. Kinda crazy how quickly data spreads and how quietly companies share data and how little control users really have (without becoming luddites).
- Drew_ 3y agoWhat do you think Snapchat built all over their mapping functionality by hand? Of course Snapchat is sharing your location with third parties. They always have been.
- isaacfrond 3y agoIt uses your location to look up information about your surroundings, which it then uses in its snaps. The users I spoke about it have a real uncanny valley feeling about it all. That may be real problem.