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> From the outside religion seems more about hate than love. I'd wager the view is different from the inside. Communities of any kind can be condemned one way

> From the outside religion seems more about hate than love. I'd wager the view is different from the inside. Communities of any kind can be condemned one way or another from the outside. The weekly potlucks and choirs still exist and I'll bet you way fewer Christian parents (of whatever denomination) see a gay child as a sin than whenever it was that you grew up. > I don't think that as a society we have figured out what the next evolution of community looks like. Honestly, it might look like a society in which people go back to church.

empyrrhicist 3y ago
> way fewer Christian parents (of whatever denomination) see a gay child as a sin than whenever it was that you grew up. Maybe, but I'd need to see numbers - and certainly the hateful are very vocal. Anecdotally I've watched the moderate Lutheran church of my parents undergo the same schism between progressives and regressives we see everywhere else over the last 20 years. > Honestly, it might look like a society in which people go back to church. Perhaps, but that's simply not an option for many. After losing my religion and continuing to learn about the universe as seen scientifically, the idea of joining an organization with a supernatural doctrine is just impossible to imagine. The idea of people pretending to know such wildly specific things about the nature of reality without evidence is viscerally offensive to my sensibilities.
- svachalek 3y ago
  Yes. I haven't been to church much lately but in more conservative denominations (Catholic, Lutheran) I've seen direct politics in the pulpit, go vote for this or that Republican or support "our" party. Having grown up with "separation of church and state" seeming to be something everyone could agree on, it gives me chills.
  - empyrrhicist 3y ago
    Yeah voting instructions from the pulpit is horrifying. That should result in immediate revocation of tax exempt status. Render unto Caesar and all that.
aidenn0 3y ago
> I'll bet you way fewer Christian parents (of whatever denomination) see a gay child as a sin than whenever it was that you grew up. I wouldn't be surprised if this were true, but the divide in churches over this has widened as it has gone from pragmatic silence on the issue to churches having to take a side. The past decade or so has seen a lot of ordained ministers change denominations (in both directions) over this issue, churches expelled from denominations, and schisms in denominations itself. I know several people who had formerly felt welcome at specific churches as LGBTQ individuals (or friends & family of such) that have left after churches and/or denominations have been forced to openly make (or reaffirm in some way) statements about such things. >> I don't think that as a society we have figured out what the next evolution of community looks like. > Honestly, it might look like a society in which people go back to church. That would be a significant reversal of a trend that has been going in the opposite direction for a long time. And not just of churches -- participation in other community activities (e.g. Elks, Rotary, even bowling leagues) has been on the decline since roughly the mid 20th century.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > But the divide in churches over this has widened as it has gone from pragmatic silence on the issue to churches having to take a side. The churches that are taking a side loudly now are largely a subset of the ones that have always taken the same side, they just did it more quietly before because all of society and government at all levels were on the same side. > The past decade or so has seen a lot of ordained ministers change denominations (in both directions) over this issue, churches expelled from denominations, and schisms in denominations itself. This happened now not because churches only now developed strong views, but because the views before were strong but uncontested. (At the same time, that does make a difference to people who could individually be themselves, but quietly, when the Church wasn’t taking an assertive stand the way it might be now that it feels the broad social order on these issues was under threat.)

empyrrhicist 3y ago

> way fewer Christian parents (of whatever denomination) see a gay child as a sin than whenever it was that you grew up. Maybe, but I'd need to see numbers - and certainly the hateful are very vocal. Anecdotally I've watched the moderate Lutheran church of my parents undergo the same schism between progressives and regressives we see everywhere else over the last 20 years. > Honestly, it might look like a society in which people go back to church. Perhaps, but that's simply not an option for many. After losing my religion and continuing to learn about the universe as seen scientifically, the idea of joining an organization with a supernatural doctrine is just impossible to imagine. The idea of people pretending to know such wildly specific things about the nature of reality without evidence is viscerally offensive to my sensibilities.

svachalek 3y ago
Yes. I haven't been to church much lately but in more conservative denominations (Catholic, Lutheran) I've seen direct politics in the pulpit, go vote for this or that Republican or support "our" party. Having grown up with "separation of church and state" seeming to be something everyone could agree on, it gives me chills.
- empyrrhicist 3y ago
  Yeah voting instructions from the pulpit is horrifying. That should result in immediate revocation of tax exempt status. Render unto Caesar and all that.

aidenn0 3y ago

> I'll bet you way fewer Christian parents (of whatever denomination) see a gay child as a sin than whenever it was that you grew up. I wouldn't be surprised if this were true, but the divide in churches over this has widened as it has gone from pragmatic silence on the issue to churches having to take a side. The past decade or so has seen a lot of ordained ministers change denominations (in both directions) over this issue, churches expelled from denominations, and schisms in denominations itself. I know several people who had formerly felt welcome at specific churches as LGBTQ individuals (or friends & family of such) that have left after churches and/or denominations have been forced to openly make (or reaffirm in some way) statements about such things. >> I don't think that as a society we have figured out what the next evolution of community looks like. > Honestly, it might look like a society in which people go back to church. That would be a significant reversal of a trend that has been going in the opposite direction for a long time. And not just of churches -- participation in other community activities (e.g. Elks, Rotary, even bowling leagues) has been on the decline since roughly the mid 20th century.

dragonwriter 3y ago
> But the divide in churches over this has widened as it has gone from pragmatic silence on the issue to churches having to take a side. The churches that are taking a side loudly now are largely a subset of the ones that have always taken the same side, they just did it more quietly before because all of society and government at all levels were on the same side. > The past decade or so has seen a lot of ordained ministers change denominations (in both directions) over this issue, churches expelled from denominations, and schisms in denominations itself. This happened now not because churches only now developed strong views, but because the views before were strong but uncontested. (At the same time, that does make a difference to people who could individually be themselves, but quietly, when the Church wasn’t taking an assertive stand the way it might be now that it feels the broad social order on these issues was under threat.)