6 ms·

Court-imposed fines and fees are 'entrapping' poor people: Justice Department

44 points by DocFeind 3y ago

cyanydeez 3y ago
Weird how regressive government is today. It's almost like the same dark patterns have to constantly be fought against. Then there's racism.
sixothree 3y ago
I will never forget the afternoon I spent in traffic court. I was just about last. I was absolutely appalled at the situations people were in and the fined being they were charged with. Every single person seemed to end up with a fine I’m 99% sure they couldn’t afford to pay. When my turn came up I agreed to my comparative measly $125 fine and got the whole ordeal over with. When I went to pay the total cost was some $300+ dollars. Fees for every single thing you could imagine had been tacked on. It was a complete scam. I can’t believe this exists. It’s tragic and terrible.
- nine_zeros 3y ago
  The addition of fees is an American virus, that is started to affect the rest of the world. There should be a law which says that the total amount an individual is obligated to pay for fines/services will only be equal to the displayed price. No fees/taxes/charges can be added once the price is accepted by both parties.
  - ryandrake 3y ago
    Not knowing what you are going to pay until you are committed to paying is the most American sickness that exists. It’s infected every purchase we make. Every purchase has sales tax added on non-transparently at the check out counter. Restaurant bills have tips. Your cable and telephone bills have hidden fees tacked onto the advertised price. Hotel stays have resort fees and an amenity charge that gets applied if you so much as brush up against one of the sodas they leave out for you. Hospitals don’t even have prices. You just go and preemptively agree to pay whatever they ask for later. Insanity. You never actually end up paying what it says on the label in America. So much business relies on this deception, that if you forced companies to advertise exact prices, everyone would go out of business.
    - bacchusracine 3y ago
      > if you forced companies to advertise exact prices, everyone would go out of business Sounds like many companies do not deserve to be in business then, if they cannot honestly charge what it costs to provide the goods or services they advertise and need to commit fraud to stay in business.
- tracker1 3y ago
  Get involved in local politics... Start a petition to change the law. It is a lot of work, but it's not nearly as difficult as you might think.
- thephyber 3y ago
  The DOJ already did a scathing report about this happening in Ferguson, MO. One of the best Reddit threads I’ve ever read about the context of that town (when a police officer shot an unarmed black man circa 2016) was about the police and local government acting as parasites on the citizens / travelers. It describe how taking a day off of hourly work to get to court to pay a fine could mean you get fired. Anyone who could afford a lawyer didn’t have to show up personally. Old NPR story about the same topic: https://www.npr.org/2014/08/25/343143937/in-ferguson-court-fines-and-fees-fuel-anger https://www.npr.org/2014/08/25/343143937/in-ferguson-court-f... I have tried to think about how to write a product/service to help people deal with / fight this sort of parasitic government process.
- Am4TIfIsER0ppos 3y ago
  You could just go down the euro route where you are automatically fined for traffic violations without a court needing to get involved. No fees but the police also don't need to prove jack shit.
iudqnolq 3y ago
The Civil Rights Corps have done some pretty significant work in this area. They've won lawsuits to require some court systems to look at people's ability to pay before setting fines and fees, for example. https://civilrightscorps.org/our-work/ https://civilrightscorps.org/our-work/
svnt 3y ago
If you default on a debt, even if the original debt holder writes it down, a lawyer can buy it, and file a lawsuit against you. You are served with papers requiring you to “appear” and usually pay hundreds of dollars in fees, not to mention the additional work and discomfort of a court appearance about something you usually really have no legal argument against. If you cannot afford to pay, or cannot or do not appear, the judge will grant whatever is requested, which is usually that the full amount of the debt be resurrected, with a punitive go-forward interest rate, and a lien instated, typically upgrading the debt from unsecured to essentially secured and also enables wage garnishment. You can head this off by filing bankruptcy, but that also costs hundreds to thousands of dollars and requires significant time, organization, and frankly risk as the limits for things like keeping a reliable car are absurdly out of date. Why do we allow lazy lawyers and others to leverage judges in order to stand on people’s necks?
- thephyber 3y ago
  > Why do we allow lazy lawyers to leverage judges in order to stand on people’s necks? Diffuse costs and concentrated benefits. Also, Calvinism. It’s a very destructive belief within some strains of Protestantism that treats people as if they are irredeemably lost if they are unsuccessful, sick, mentally ill, criminal, etc. It is highly corrosive towards any functioning society. This belief makes people feel as if fees / punishments / dark patterns on “those people” are morally justified.
- johngladtj 3y ago
  How is the court standing on people's necks? If someone takes something from me, and doesn't return it, should I not have the right to take it back? As far as I am aware no one is forcing people to take on loans at gunpoint (other under threat of some criminal act being committed against them), not would any court enforce a debt incurred in such a way, so what exactly is the problem here? Don't take on debt you can't afford to pay back and you won't have a problem. Don't default on your debts and you will never have a problem.
  - flangola7 3y ago
    Willful and unimaginative ignorance is boring.
thephyber 3y ago
This rhymes with the 2015 DOJ report that investigated Ferguson, MO after a police shooting there that sparked large scale unrest: https://finesandfeesjusticecenter.org/articles/investigation-ferguson-police-department https://finesandfeesjusticecenter.org/articles/investigation...
exabrial 3y ago
Fines and Taxes are how we keep poor people poor. Want to buy a nice house [and you're poor]? Well, by law you're going to need to install an electric car charger there [and we don't care if you own an electric car]. Oh and we're going to tax the crap out of that house every year, even though you've already paid for it. Oh and the income you're using to pay that tax, we're going to tax that too. Oh and your employer that gives you that money, we're going to tax the crap out of that too. Oh, and are you a trade member? Well, we're going to allow a local union to tax you too, regardless if you're a member. Oh you want to buy food? Yep, tax that too. Oh you want to buy gas to go to your job? Yep, special tax that too. Oh you broken the speed limit by 7mph because you were late to work? We're going to tax the crap out of you, you criminal!! Did you seriously just try to keep chickens on your property to save money on groceries??? Your white neighbors don't like that, we're definitely fining you! Did you just try to start a business to elevate yourself out of poverty?! NO, no no, you can't do that lol, here's a tax, a fine, and court date. Meanwhile, the 1%'ers making these rules in the Senate and House see a guaranteed raise every single year, regardless of the GDP performance and have benefits paid for, for life, and lets not even get to Nancy Pelosi's incredible "luck" trading on the stock market.

44 points by DocFeind 3y ago

Weird how regressive government is today. It's almost like the same dark patterns have to constantly be fought against. Then there's racism.

sixothree 3y ago

I will never forget the afternoon I spent in traffic court. I was just about last. I was absolutely appalled at the situations people were in and the fined being they were charged with. Every single person seemed to end up with a fine I’m 99% sure they couldn’t afford to pay. When my turn came up I agreed to my comparative measly $125 fine and got the whole ordeal over with. When I went to pay the total cost was some $300+ dollars. Fees for every single thing you could imagine had been tacked on. It was a complete scam. I can’t believe this exists. It’s tragic and terrible.

nine_zeros 3y ago
The addition of fees is an American virus, that is started to affect the rest of the world. There should be a law which says that the total amount an individual is obligated to pay for fines/services will only be equal to the displayed price. No fees/taxes/charges can be added once the price is accepted by both parties.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  Not knowing what you are going to pay until you are committed to paying is the most American sickness that exists. It’s infected every purchase we make. Every purchase has sales tax added on non-transparently at the check out counter. Restaurant bills have tips. Your cable and telephone bills have hidden fees tacked onto the advertised price. Hotel stays have resort fees and an amenity charge that gets applied if you so much as brush up against one of the sodas they leave out for you. Hospitals don’t even have prices. You just go and preemptively agree to pay whatever they ask for later. Insanity. You never actually end up paying what it says on the label in America. So much business relies on this deception, that if you forced companies to advertise exact prices, everyone would go out of business.
  - bacchusracine 3y ago
    > if you forced companies to advertise exact prices, everyone would go out of business Sounds like many companies do not deserve to be in business then, if they cannot honestly charge what it costs to provide the goods or services they advertise and need to commit fraud to stay in business.
tracker1 3y ago
Get involved in local politics... Start a petition to change the law. It is a lot of work, but it's not nearly as difficult as you might think.
thephyber 3y ago
The DOJ already did a scathing report about this happening in Ferguson, MO. One of the best Reddit threads I’ve ever read about the context of that town (when a police officer shot an unarmed black man circa 2016) was about the police and local government acting as parasites on the citizens / travelers. It describe how taking a day off of hourly work to get to court to pay a fine could mean you get fired. Anyone who could afford a lawyer didn’t have to show up personally. Old NPR story about the same topic: https://www.npr.org/2014/08/25/343143937/in-ferguson-court-fines-and-fees-fuel-anger https://www.npr.org/2014/08/25/343143937/in-ferguson-court-f... I have tried to think about how to write a product/service to help people deal with / fight this sort of parasitic government process.
Am4TIfIsER0ppos 3y ago
You could just go down the euro route where you are automatically fined for traffic violations without a court needing to get involved. No fees but the police also don't need to prove jack shit.

iudqnolq 3y ago

The Civil Rights Corps have done some pretty significant work in this area. They've won lawsuits to require some court systems to look at people's ability to pay before setting fines and fees, for example. https://civilrightscorps.org/our-work/ https://civilrightscorps.org/our-work/

svnt 3y ago

If you default on a debt, even if the original debt holder writes it down, a lawyer can buy it, and file a lawsuit against you. You are served with papers requiring you to “appear” and usually pay hundreds of dollars in fees, not to mention the additional work and discomfort of a court appearance about something you usually really have no legal argument against. If you cannot afford to pay, or cannot or do not appear, the judge will grant whatever is requested, which is usually that the full amount of the debt be resurrected, with a punitive go-forward interest rate, and a lien instated, typically upgrading the debt from unsecured to essentially secured and also enables wage garnishment. You can head this off by filing bankruptcy, but that also costs hundreds to thousands of dollars and requires significant time, organization, and frankly risk as the limits for things like keeping a reliable car are absurdly out of date. Why do we allow lazy lawyers and others to leverage judges in order to stand on people’s necks?

thephyber 3y ago
> Why do we allow lazy lawyers to leverage judges in order to stand on people’s necks? Diffuse costs and concentrated benefits. Also, Calvinism. It’s a very destructive belief within some strains of Protestantism that treats people as if they are irredeemably lost if they are unsuccessful, sick, mentally ill, criminal, etc. It is highly corrosive towards any functioning society. This belief makes people feel as if fees / punishments / dark patterns on “those people” are morally justified.
johngladtj 3y ago
How is the court standing on people's necks? If someone takes something from me, and doesn't return it, should I not have the right to take it back? As far as I am aware no one is forcing people to take on loans at gunpoint (other under threat of some criminal act being committed against them), not would any court enforce a debt incurred in such a way, so what exactly is the problem here? Don't take on debt you can't afford to pay back and you won't have a problem. Don't default on your debts and you will never have a problem.
- flangola7 3y ago
  Willful and unimaginative ignorance is boring.

thephyber 3y ago

This rhymes with the 2015 DOJ report that investigated Ferguson, MO after a police shooting there that sparked large scale unrest: https://finesandfeesjusticecenter.org/articles/investigation-ferguson-police-department https://finesandfeesjusticecenter.org/articles/investigation...

exabrial 3y ago

Fines and Taxes are how we keep poor people poor. Want to buy a nice house [and you're poor]? Well, by law you're going to need to install an electric car charger there [and we don't care if you own an electric car]. Oh and we're going to tax the crap out of that house every year, even though you've already paid for it. Oh and the income you're using to pay that tax, we're going to tax that too. Oh and your employer that gives you that money, we're going to tax the crap out of that too. Oh, and are you a trade member? Well, we're going to allow a local union to tax you too, regardless if you're a member. Oh you want to buy food? Yep, tax that too. Oh you want to buy gas to go to your job? Yep, special tax that too. Oh you broken the speed limit by 7mph because you were late to work? We're going to tax the crap out of you, you criminal!! Did you seriously just try to keep chickens on your property to save money on groceries??? Your white neighbors don't like that, we're definitely fining you! Did you just try to start a business to elevate yourself out of poverty?! NO, no no, you can't do that lol, here's a tax, a fine, and court date. Meanwhile, the 1%'ers making these rules in the Senate and House see a guaranteed raise every single year, regardless of the GDP performance and have benefits paid for, for life, and lets not even get to Nancy Pelosi's incredible "luck" trading on the stock market.