4 ms·

I am extremely militantly atheist, but I remember growing up with the church and experiencing community. There were weekly potlucks and all the church kids woul

I am extremely militantly atheist, but I remember growing up with the church and experiencing community. There were weekly potlucks and all the church kids would hang out frequently while the parents drank. There were various clubs like choir you could just show up and be accepted. Today we see things like christian parents abandoning their gay children, wanting to "cure" trans people, or "christians" voting for trump and it's clear that religion and therefore, for many, community has been corrupted by politics. From the outside religion seems more about hate than love. An irony considering the teachings of Jesus. The internet exposes people to other people all around the earth who grew up in different environments, it makes clear that religion is a tradition, not a truth to be measured and understood, it is clear that region is in decline. The tragedy is that what was once a centerpiece of community has dwindled, and I think we are seeing the effects across society. Lack of community promotes addiction. We used to be born into community and baptized into it, but now we are left seeking it ourselves without guides like pastors. Community has been replaced with therapy. What we were once born into is now something we have to work for and pay for, and I don't think that as a society we have figured out what the next evolution of community looks like.

prottog 4y ago
> From the outside religion seems more about hate than love. I'd wager the view is different from the inside. Communities of any kind can be condemned one way or another from the outside. The weekly potlucks and choirs still exist and I'll bet you way fewer Christian parents (of whatever denomination) see a gay child as a sin than whenever it was that you grew up. > I don't think that as a society we have figured out what the next evolution of community looks like. Honestly, it might look like a society in which people go back to church.
- empyrrhicist 4y ago
  > way fewer Christian parents (of whatever denomination) see a gay child as a sin than whenever it was that you grew up. Maybe, but I'd need to see numbers - and certainly the hateful are very vocal. Anecdotally I've watched the moderate Lutheran church of my parents undergo the same schism between progressives and regressives we see everywhere else over the last 20 years. > Honestly, it might look like a society in which people go back to church. Perhaps, but that's simply not an option for many. After losing my religion and continuing to learn about the universe as seen scientifically, the idea of joining an organization with a supernatural doctrine is just impossible to imagine. The idea of people pretending to know such wildly specific things about the nature of reality without evidence is viscerally offensive to my sensibilities.
  - svachalek 4y ago
    Yes. I haven't been to church much lately but in more conservative denominations (Catholic, Lutheran) I've seen direct politics in the pulpit, go vote for this or that Republican or support "our" party. Having grown up with "separation of church and state" seeming to be something everyone could agree on, it gives me chills.
    - empyrrhicist 4y ago
      Yeah voting instructions from the pulpit is horrifying. That should result in immediate revocation of tax exempt status. Render unto Caesar and all that.
- aidenn0 4y ago
  > I'll bet you way fewer Christian parents (of whatever denomination) see a gay child as a sin than whenever it was that you grew up. I wouldn't be surprised if this were true, but the divide in churches over this has widened as it has gone from pragmatic silence on the issue to churches having to take a side. The past decade or so has seen a lot of ordained ministers change denominations (in both directions) over this issue, churches expelled from denominations, and schisms in denominations itself. I know several people who had formerly felt welcome at specific churches as LGBTQ individuals (or friends & family of such) that have left after churches and/or denominations have been forced to openly make (or reaffirm in some way) statements about such things. >> I don't think that as a society we have figured out what the next evolution of community looks like. > Honestly, it might look like a society in which people go back to church. That would be a significant reversal of a trend that has been going in the opposite direction for a long time. And not just of churches -- participation in other community activities (e.g. Elks, Rotary, even bowling leagues) has been on the decline since roughly the mid 20th century.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > But the divide in churches over this has widened as it has gone from pragmatic silence on the issue to churches having to take a side. The churches that are taking a side loudly now are largely a subset of the ones that have always taken the same side, they just did it more quietly before because all of society and government at all levels were on the same side. > The past decade or so has seen a lot of ordained ministers change denominations (in both directions) over this issue, churches expelled from denominations, and schisms in denominations itself. This happened now not because churches only now developed strong views, but because the views before were strong but uncontested. (At the same time, that does make a difference to people who could individually be themselves, but quietly, when the Church wasn’t taking an assertive stand the way it might be now that it feels the broad social order on these issues was under threat.)
perfmode 4y ago
why militantly?
- empyrrhicist 4y ago
  Not OP, but I probably fall at least somewhat into that category. Most people that feel strongly about their non-theism seem to do so in response to their direct or indirect experience with the religious. I grew up in a very Christian environment, and painfully coming to the realization that my methods for dealing with existential anxiety were based on lies made me extremely bitter. Even now, after many years of becoming better adjusted and working on myself I'm still a bit salty about it, and I don't think it can be good for children to experience. I also get grossed out, for lack of a better term, at all the self congratulatory nonsense that goes on in religious communities. I have no problem with religious people, and have a number of lovely ones in my life, but if people start even lightly evangelizing at me my hackles go up quick.
  - hayst4ck 4y ago
    This was more or less correct. It's hard to express the trauma without the vitriol. My grandma disowned me and my parents were basically in a state of disappointment for an extended period of time in my developing years. The lesson was clear. To practice christian love means only loving Christians. That's not what the Jesus I learned about taught. The way Christians acted was frequently in violation of the values they claimed they had. A great historian brought up the idea of democracy being something you are, or something you do. Well to many Christianity is something they are, not something they do. If Christianity is something you are, then your sins are forgiven and you don't have to live your life in any particular way, you are christian by your very being. If Christianity is something you do, then actions would align with christian values, and you are only as christian as the way you act. So large swathes of society adopt a core axiom to their belief system: "my traditions are the truth, contradictory or not." And once somebody believes a contradiction is the truth, real actual truth must be formed around it or rejected. Once you take a contradictory axiom into your belief system, your system services authority not rationality. So you can either have a belief system formed around the idea that contradictions indicate "not truth" or a belief system based on the idea that there is one truth that must be built off. This makes Christianity the enemy of rationality and an enemy of my own belief system. The christian requirement of authority requires resistance, thus militant-ism.
giantrobot 4y ago
> The tragedy is that what was once a centerpiece of community has dwindled, and I think we are seeing the effects across society. Lack of community promotes addiction. The Skinner boxes that are engineered into social media is a huge part of addiction. Social media is filled with digital versions of the psychological traps found in casinos. Social media weaponized dopamine.
thaumaturgy 4y ago
Maybe you grew up long before I did, but my childhood began in the late 70s, and I remember Proposition 8 (2008), Matthew Shepard (1998), satanic panic (1980s and 90s), and I know people my age and younger that survived conversion therapy "camps". I don't really disagree with the rest of your points, and I can be convinced that churches have gotten incrementally more political since 2008, but I don't think the differences are quite as stark as you say. Churches have been political and cruel to out-groups for a long time. I suspect that some of the perceived difference can be ascribed to experiencing church as a child vs. experiencing it as an adult.
treeman79 4y ago
[flagged]
dragonwriter 4y ago
> I remember growing up with the church and experiencing community. While everyone likes to generalize their church experience as “the church”, the fact is that the experience of the church, even at a given point in time, varies a lot by particular church community (parish/congregation/etc.), even within thr same larger organization. > Today we see things like christian parents abandoning their gay children, wanting to “cure” trans people, or “christians” voting for trump and it’s clear that religion and therefore, for many, community has been corrupted by politics None of this is new. I grew up in great, accepting Church communities in the 1970s and 1980s, but even as a kid I knew those weren’t the only kind. And even then, religious organizations being deeply involved in and affecte by basic political disputes (on every side) wasn’t new. We (and the institutions themselves) tend to celebrate it for institutions that were on what is, in retrospect, seen as the right side, but a view of history that only pays attention to the history people like to talk about is misleading.
- dllthomas 4y ago
  Coughlin...
throwaway22032 4y ago
Are you just misremembering the treatment of gay/trans people growing up? In my neck of the woods, being gay was not acceptable, we would constantly use homophobic slurs, and being trans (not a cross dresser, but actually changing gender/sex) was treated fairly similarly to insanity. Nowadays, IME most people think that being gay is acceptable and unless they live fairly rurally or something probably have gay friends, and mostly people recognise the validity of being transgender but still find it a bit of an "out there" lifestyle choice. I don't buy the idea that the Christian community were more supportive of these things before and things have regressed. I think you just care about them more now for whatever reason.
- User23 4y ago
  > Nowadays, IME most people think that being gay is acceptable and unless they live fairly rurally or something probably have gay friends, and mostly people recognise the validity of being transgender but still find it a bit of an "out there" lifestyle choice. Most people lie, because expressing their opinions on the subject is costly in our society. If you hook them up to an MRI their brain lights up like they're looking at feces or squirming maggots when presented the stimulus of two men interacting sexually with each other. Interestingly, a lack of disgust sensitivity is a powerful predictor for left wing political beliefs.
  - nice_bussy 4y ago
    [flagged]
  - TRiG_Ireland 4y ago
    Any evidence to back that up?
louison11 4y ago
You make a great point about the historical role of religion in forming community. I think we’ve seen this shift already. Community can be found through sports, classes, meetups, and in many more traditional areas of the world still through village/city public events and festivals. As far as “Prayer community,” I think it will always serve an important role in connecting people who share a common faith and for who that faith is an essential way through which they look at the world. If not through Church or established religions, I think we are increasingly seeing the emergence of people organizing around opportunities for personal development (which is a key function of religions). Topics like interpersonal awareness, deepening of physical and emotional intimacy, etc. People seemingly enjoy connecting around a shared desire for growth. Now, this comes with its own set of issues and potential for abuse/deception. But that’s my gut feeling for where we’re headed.

prottog 4y ago

> From the outside religion seems more about hate than love. I'd wager the view is different from the inside. Communities of any kind can be condemned one way or another from the outside. The weekly potlucks and choirs still exist and I'll bet you way fewer Christian parents (of whatever denomination) see a gay child as a sin than whenever it was that you grew up. > I don't think that as a society we have figured out what the next evolution of community looks like. Honestly, it might look like a society in which people go back to church.

empyrrhicist 4y ago
> way fewer Christian parents (of whatever denomination) see a gay child as a sin than whenever it was that you grew up. Maybe, but I'd need to see numbers - and certainly the hateful are very vocal. Anecdotally I've watched the moderate Lutheran church of my parents undergo the same schism between progressives and regressives we see everywhere else over the last 20 years. > Honestly, it might look like a society in which people go back to church. Perhaps, but that's simply not an option for many. After losing my religion and continuing to learn about the universe as seen scientifically, the idea of joining an organization with a supernatural doctrine is just impossible to imagine. The idea of people pretending to know such wildly specific things about the nature of reality without evidence is viscerally offensive to my sensibilities.
- svachalek 4y ago
  Yes. I haven't been to church much lately but in more conservative denominations (Catholic, Lutheran) I've seen direct politics in the pulpit, go vote for this or that Republican or support "our" party. Having grown up with "separation of church and state" seeming to be something everyone could agree on, it gives me chills.
  - empyrrhicist 4y ago
    Yeah voting instructions from the pulpit is horrifying. That should result in immediate revocation of tax exempt status. Render unto Caesar and all that.
aidenn0 4y ago
> I'll bet you way fewer Christian parents (of whatever denomination) see a gay child as a sin than whenever it was that you grew up. I wouldn't be surprised if this were true, but the divide in churches over this has widened as it has gone from pragmatic silence on the issue to churches having to take a side. The past decade or so has seen a lot of ordained ministers change denominations (in both directions) over this issue, churches expelled from denominations, and schisms in denominations itself. I know several people who had formerly felt welcome at specific churches as LGBTQ individuals (or friends & family of such) that have left after churches and/or denominations have been forced to openly make (or reaffirm in some way) statements about such things. >> I don't think that as a society we have figured out what the next evolution of community looks like. > Honestly, it might look like a society in which people go back to church. That would be a significant reversal of a trend that has been going in the opposite direction for a long time. And not just of churches -- participation in other community activities (e.g. Elks, Rotary, even bowling leagues) has been on the decline since roughly the mid 20th century.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > But the divide in churches over this has widened as it has gone from pragmatic silence on the issue to churches having to take a side. The churches that are taking a side loudly now are largely a subset of the ones that have always taken the same side, they just did it more quietly before because all of society and government at all levels were on the same side. > The past decade or so has seen a lot of ordained ministers change denominations (in both directions) over this issue, churches expelled from denominations, and schisms in denominations itself. This happened now not because churches only now developed strong views, but because the views before were strong but uncontested. (At the same time, that does make a difference to people who could individually be themselves, but quietly, when the Church wasn’t taking an assertive stand the way it might be now that it feels the broad social order on these issues was under threat.)

perfmode 4y ago

why militantly?

empyrrhicist 4y ago
Not OP, but I probably fall at least somewhat into that category. Most people that feel strongly about their non-theism seem to do so in response to their direct or indirect experience with the religious. I grew up in a very Christian environment, and painfully coming to the realization that my methods for dealing with existential anxiety were based on lies made me extremely bitter. Even now, after many years of becoming better adjusted and working on myself I'm still a bit salty about it, and I don't think it can be good for children to experience. I also get grossed out, for lack of a better term, at all the self congratulatory nonsense that goes on in religious communities. I have no problem with religious people, and have a number of lovely ones in my life, but if people start even lightly evangelizing at me my hackles go up quick.
- hayst4ck 4y ago
  This was more or less correct. It's hard to express the trauma without the vitriol. My grandma disowned me and my parents were basically in a state of disappointment for an extended period of time in my developing years. The lesson was clear. To practice christian love means only loving Christians. That's not what the Jesus I learned about taught. The way Christians acted was frequently in violation of the values they claimed they had. A great historian brought up the idea of democracy being something you are, or something you do. Well to many Christianity is something they are, not something they do. If Christianity is something you are, then your sins are forgiven and you don't have to live your life in any particular way, you are christian by your very being. If Christianity is something you do, then actions would align with christian values, and you are only as christian as the way you act. So large swathes of society adopt a core axiom to their belief system: "my traditions are the truth, contradictory or not." And once somebody believes a contradiction is the truth, real actual truth must be formed around it or rejected. Once you take a contradictory axiom into your belief system, your system services authority not rationality. So you can either have a belief system formed around the idea that contradictions indicate "not truth" or a belief system based on the idea that there is one truth that must be built off. This makes Christianity the enemy of rationality and an enemy of my own belief system. The christian requirement of authority requires resistance, thus militant-ism.

giantrobot 4y ago

> The tragedy is that what was once a centerpiece of community has dwindled, and I think we are seeing the effects across society. Lack of community promotes addiction. The Skinner boxes that are engineered into social media is a huge part of addiction. Social media is filled with digital versions of the psychological traps found in casinos. Social media weaponized dopamine.

thaumaturgy 4y ago

Maybe you grew up long before I did, but my childhood began in the late 70s, and I remember Proposition 8 (2008), Matthew Shepard (1998), satanic panic (1980s and 90s), and I know people my age and younger that survived conversion therapy "camps". I don't really disagree with the rest of your points, and I can be convinced that churches have gotten incrementally more political since 2008, but I don't think the differences are quite as stark as you say. Churches have been political and cruel to out-groups for a long time. I suspect that some of the perceived difference can be ascribed to experiencing church as a child vs. experiencing it as an adult.

treeman79 4y ago

[flagged]

dragonwriter 4y ago

> I remember growing up with the church and experiencing community. While everyone likes to generalize their church experience as “the church”, the fact is that the experience of the church, even at a given point in time, varies a lot by particular church community (parish/congregation/etc.), even within thr same larger organization. > Today we see things like christian parents abandoning their gay children, wanting to “cure” trans people, or “christians” voting for trump and it’s clear that religion and therefore, for many, community has been corrupted by politics None of this is new. I grew up in great, accepting Church communities in the 1970s and 1980s, but even as a kid I knew those weren’t the only kind. And even then, religious organizations being deeply involved in and affecte by basic political disputes (on every side) wasn’t new. We (and the institutions themselves) tend to celebrate it for institutions that were on what is, in retrospect, seen as the right side, but a view of history that only pays attention to the history people like to talk about is misleading.

dllthomas 4y ago
Coughlin...

throwaway22032 4y ago

Are you just misremembering the treatment of gay/trans people growing up? In my neck of the woods, being gay was not acceptable, we would constantly use homophobic slurs, and being trans (not a cross dresser, but actually changing gender/sex) was treated fairly similarly to insanity. Nowadays, IME most people think that being gay is acceptable and unless they live fairly rurally or something probably have gay friends, and mostly people recognise the validity of being transgender but still find it a bit of an "out there" lifestyle choice. I don't buy the idea that the Christian community were more supportive of these things before and things have regressed. I think you just care about them more now for whatever reason.

User23 4y ago
> Nowadays, IME most people think that being gay is acceptable and unless they live fairly rurally or something probably have gay friends, and mostly people recognise the validity of being transgender but still find it a bit of an "out there" lifestyle choice. Most people lie, because expressing their opinions on the subject is costly in our society. If you hook them up to an MRI their brain lights up like they're looking at feces or squirming maggots when presented the stimulus of two men interacting sexually with each other. Interestingly, a lack of disgust sensitivity is a powerful predictor for left wing political beliefs.
- nice_bussy 4y ago
  [flagged]
- TRiG_Ireland 4y ago
  Any evidence to back that up?

louison11 4y ago

You make a great point about the historical role of religion in forming community. I think we’ve seen this shift already. Community can be found through sports, classes, meetups, and in many more traditional areas of the world still through village/city public events and festivals. As far as “Prayer community,” I think it will always serve an important role in connecting people who share a common faith and for who that faith is an essential way through which they look at the world. If not through Church or established religions, I think we are increasingly seeing the emergence of people organizing around opportunities for personal development (which is a key function of religions). Topics like interpersonal awareness, deepening of physical and emotional intimacy, etc. People seemingly enjoy connecting around a shared desire for growth. Now, this comes with its own set of issues and potential for abuse/deception. But that’s my gut feeling for where we’re headed.