7 ms·

Layoff Runbook

150 points by rcy 3y ago

markus_zhang 3y ago
Might need it next week. There is a big wave coming.
- markus_zhang 3y ago
  Not sure why I got downvoted...there is indeed a big wave coming next week for my company.
0xbadcafebee 3y ago
Some thoughts: Put your money into an HSA rather than an FSA. It's a free extra retirement account. You don't need to worry about being locked out of your 401K after being sacked. It's still your money and they have to give you access to it, even after you're sacked. Transfer the money out to a separate 401K account that only you control after you've left the company. (Or don't, because I'm pretty sure they have to keep your account open indefinitely, but IANAL so ask a professional) You should practice interviewing well before your last day. Interview somewhere you'd like to work at least every 6 months. Tell them you're not looking to move right away but you're curious about their company and team an open to hearing about new opportunities. Keep in contact afterward. Not mentioned there, but commuter benefits cards have an expiration after which you can't spend the money, so make sure if you have a balance that you spend it before it expires. I once built up $250 on a card and forgot about it.
- candiddevmike 3y ago
  HSAs and FSAs are not entirely swappable. HSAs require a qualifying health plan, and are a pain in the ass to move around in my experience. FSAs are actually better for those that are laid off--you can use the full balance of the FSA before you pay it. Say you commit 3k to a FSA, you can use 3k of it on day one (or the day you are laid off...). Your company is on the hook for the remainder of the balance if you aren't there to pay it back. I would be annoyed as hell if someone kept asking to be interviewed but never accepted the position. Interviews aren't free, don't waste peoples time doing them if you aren't serious/need to practice. Pay for an interview coach.
  - throwaway280382 3y ago
    HSA is deferred for future. I (in 30% tax bracket and pretty healthy) can defer that to future as I only average about two doctor visits per year last 2 years. So, if I put it in FSA, I loose the money since my number of visits to doctor are few and far between. HSA, I can use after I retire also or when I grow older. So for my situation, it is better.
    - candiddevmike 3y ago
      Lately, I haven't been seeing the HSA math make sense, at least for a family. The monthly difference between a high deductible plan with a HSA is not cheap enough to cover the deductible gap, and care has gotten a lot more expensive. Either choice will most likely result in medical bankruptcy without some sort of independent wealth. Best to have socialized healthcare and not have to worry about any of this.
      - wombatpm 3y ago
        The only time an HSA worked for me was when it was the plan that had a max on out of pocket payments of 10k. I have a diabetic child and that runs to $1200 per month in out of pocket expenses. When I did the math for deductible, copays, etc it worked in my favor.
      - dhosek 3y ago
        I’ve seen at least two companies where if you sign up for the high deductible plan, the employer will contribute the full deductible amount to an HSA. I suspect this might become an increasingly common option in the benefits menu.
      - tick_tock_tick 3y ago
        You can save receipts for medical care forever and claim them against the HSA years later. The money grows tax free so you basically use it as another 401k. After age 65 or if you become disabled you can start pulling money out of a HSA without a medical cost.
      - 3y ago
- throwaway280382 3y ago
  >You don't need to worry about being locked out of your 401K after being sacked. It's still your money and they have to give you access to it, even after you're sacked. Transfer the money out to a separate 401K account that only you control after you've left the company. (Or don't, because I'm pretty sure they have to keep your account open indefinitely, but IANAL so ask a professional) You will not be locked out of 401k when you quit but they will charge about $25 per quarter ($100 per year) to maintain your account. I feel it is still a good deal and I left my 401k with my previous employers. so far I have $300k in 401k, so $300/year to maintain the portfolio (across three previous employers) and not messing it up by moving it around seems like a safe deal to me.
  - thunky 3y ago
    Converting a 401k to an IRA can mess up future backdoor Roth conversions as well.
  - vikingerik 3y ago
    Moving it around wouldn't mess it up. You can move a 401k from a previous employer to a Rollover IRA at any major custodian. This is not a taxable event (you just move pre-tax money to pre-tax money), so it doesn't matter if you sell whatever it's holding and buy the equivalent at a new custodian. The only reason to need to keep a 401k where it is is if that custodian has some unique investment option that you want there that you can't get elsewhere, but that's pretty rare.
    - xeromal 3y ago
      I ran into that with one of my old companies where they had a simple IRA and I had a hard time finding that placement investment company for that
    - ASinclair 3y ago
      Another reason to keep the funds in a 401(k) is to allow you to keep using the Backdoor Roth IRA without worrying about the Pro-rata Rule.
- curiousllama 3y ago
  > Or don't, because I'm pretty sure they have to keep your account open indefinitely, but IANAL so ask a professional Definitely a life best practice to periodically consolidate these kinds of accounts. Imagine trying to track down your 401k from your time at GE 20 years ago. It definitely exists somewhere, but it would not be fun finding it.
  - sfshaw 3y ago
    After 20 years that account might have escheated.
    - rootusrootus 3y ago
      If the plan administrator can't reach you, perhaps.
  - greggsy 3y ago
    The Australian Tax Office portal lists all of your active superannuation (or ‘super’, which is basically 401k) accounts, and offers a link to kick off the transfer process. Despite having one of the most contradictory and complex taxation systems in the world, they do make some things very easy.
  - dhosek 3y ago
    Most 401(k)s have some periodic maintenance fee. Transferring to a rollover IRA will eliminate that maintenance fee.
    - zeckalpha 3y ago
      But make a Backdoor roth harder
      - dhosek 3y ago
        As far as I can tell, the answer to that is nope. You can do it with a rollover IRA just as easily as with a 401(k).
- hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
  > Put your money into an HSA rather than an FSA. It's a free extra retirement account. You often can't really pick. To contribute to an HSA, you need to have a high deductible health plan (there have been some pushes in Congress to change this). Whether or not an HDHP makes sense for you really depends on your personal circumstances. Furthermore, you can not contribute to an HSA if you also have a healthcare FSA at the same time (there are other things called "Limited Purpose FSAs", which only cover dental and vision, that can work with an HSA). That said, if you can contribute to an HSA, they are absolutely the best tax deal around, as they are one of the only vehicles where (a) you can put money into the account tax free, (b) any growth is tax free, and most HSAs allow you to invest, and (c) if you spend the money on an exempt purpose (something healthcare related), then that's also tax free.
- Tangurena2 3y ago
  > Transfer the money out to a separate 401K account that only you control after you've left the company. Normally you move the money to a "rollover IRA" account. Every financial institution that offers IRA accounts will have a way to do this. Nowadays, most are automated. The largest players in this space are Fidelity and Vanguard. Your 401k is probably with them already. To put money in an HSA, then you are required (by law) to have a certain type of insurance plan (one with a massive deductible - usually like $5k). FSAs are a totally different type of plan, and it is really common for the money leftover at the end of the year to be donated to the executive bonus program.
scarface74 3y ago
> Document your accomplishments I’ve had a quarterly updated resume and longer form career document for over a decade. I don’t think I’ve ever had to update my resume specifically for a job opportunity. It’s constantly updated. > While you still have access to Slack, ask your manager, previous managers, and/or colleagues you worked closely with if they would be willing to give a reference check for you for your next role. You should already have them as contacts on LinkedIn > Potentially also ask for endorsements on LinkedIn On the other hand LinkedIn is merely a place to keep my contacts. I find it to be more of a self aggrandizing cesspool than Facebook.
- Spooky23 3y ago
  > On the other hand LinkedIn is merely a place to keep my contacts. I find it to be more of a self aggrandizing cesspool than Facebook. People who post on there with bullshit accomplishments are hilarious. One person in particular who I used to work with had a problem with being “humbled”. As in “I am humbled that the presidential honors society recognized that I am one of the top 12 cyber warriors in my apartment building.” Many of my former colleagues gravitate towards security stuff because there’s a lot of hiring going on and pay is high. So LinkedIn is now littered with would be cyber-commandos clucking about kill chains, ooda loops, and spouting ridiculous military jargon.
wombatpm 3y ago
A Note about FSA vs MSA/HSA. in the United States FSA = Flexible Spending Account. Every year you elect to set aside a certain amount of money. (ie $2000 per benefit year). This money is deducted over the course of the year, but you are eligible to access the entire amount once the benefit year starts. But here is the rub, if you don't spend it you lose the money to whomever is managing the spending account. MSA/HSA = Medical Savings Account/ Health Savings Account You elect to set aside a certain amount of money per paycheck into a tax advantaged account. The Money is deducted per pay period. The Amount accessible is whatever the account balance is. You do not have to spend all of the money in a calendar year. You maintain access to that money forever. Things to consider if you have an FSA account: 1) Are you ahead or behind in your reimbursements vs. payroll contributions. Behind = You have paid more into the account than you have received in reimbursements Ahead = You have paid less into the account than you received in reimbursements. 2) Do you have any expenses that you have not submitted? -- Do that NOW 3) Can you generate new expenses that you can submit for reimbursement before your window closes? Do that NOW. The goal is to be ahead on the curve. Ideally you want to submit expenses that will bring your account balance to $0. Remember when I said if you don't spend it someone else gets to keep it? Well, the flipside is also true. You are able to access the entire balance on Day 1 of the benefit year. If you have valid expenses, you can be reimbursed for the entire balance on Day 2. If the company lays you off on Day3 before you contributed a dime, sucks to be them. The same entity that gets to keep the excess, is the same entity that must make up the difference. So, if your benefits end at the end of the month, now is the time to get new glasses or dental work to draw down that balance - either to $0 or to where you are Ahead. Things to consider if you have an MSA/HSA account: You can use this money for medical-related expenses. It may allow you to maintain your prescriptions and minor health issues long enough for your new job benefits to kick in and avoid the expense of COBRA. You have a certain window after termination to elect for COBRA so its something to consider.
- remram 3y ago
  Why... does this exist... at all?
  - toast0 3y ago
metadat 3y ago
Related discussion from 2 days ago: Effective Immediately: A central hub for people who've been recently laid off (2020) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35670646 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35670646 (98 comments)
ssgodderidge 3y ago
I think this is really smart. I made a runbook for a previously-announced layoff including contacts I'd reach out to, companies I'm interested in, etc. I had a full checklist of activities to help me feel productive if I was laid off. Making that checklist was a really helpful exercise to help calm my mind while I was waiting to find out if I was laid off or not. Thankfully I wasn't laid off this time, but I plan on keeping this list updated over time.
cloudsec9 3y ago
> If you are receiving severance, sign the necessary paperwork as soon as possible so that your first payment is not delayed. > NB: after reading the paperwork to make sure none of the clauses are non-starters for you. PLEASE PLEASE consult with a lawyer to make sure you are getting what is fairly owed to you, and don't sign until you do. In many places you have to be given time to do such a consult; if not then the document isn't binding. If you've consulted and things are okay, then don't delay, I fully agree.

Layoff Runbook

150 points by rcy 3y ago

markus_zhang 3y ago

Might need it next week. There is a big wave coming.

markus_zhang 3y ago
Not sure why I got downvoted...there is indeed a big wave coming next week for my company.

0xbadcafebee 3y ago

Some thoughts: Put your money into an HSA rather than an FSA. It's a free extra retirement account. You don't need to worry about being locked out of your 401K after being sacked. It's still your money and they have to give you access to it, even after you're sacked. Transfer the money out to a separate 401K account that only you control after you've left the company. (Or don't, because I'm pretty sure they have to keep your account open indefinitely, but IANAL so ask a professional) You should practice interviewing well before your last day. Interview somewhere you'd like to work at least every 6 months. Tell them you're not looking to move right away but you're curious about their company and team an open to hearing about new opportunities. Keep in contact afterward. Not mentioned there, but commuter benefits cards have an expiration after which you can't spend the money, so make sure if you have a balance that you spend it before it expires. I once built up $250 on a card and forgot about it.

candiddevmike 3y ago
HSAs and FSAs are not entirely swappable. HSAs require a qualifying health plan, and are a pain in the ass to move around in my experience. FSAs are actually better for those that are laid off--you can use the full balance of the FSA before you pay it. Say you commit 3k to a FSA, you can use 3k of it on day one (or the day you are laid off...). Your company is on the hook for the remainder of the balance if you aren't there to pay it back. I would be annoyed as hell if someone kept asking to be interviewed but never accepted the position. Interviews aren't free, don't waste peoples time doing them if you aren't serious/need to practice. Pay for an interview coach.
- throwaway280382 3y ago
  HSA is deferred for future. I (in 30% tax bracket and pretty healthy) can defer that to future as I only average about two doctor visits per year last 2 years. So, if I put it in FSA, I loose the money since my number of visits to doctor are few and far between. HSA, I can use after I retire also or when I grow older. So for my situation, it is better.
  - candiddevmike 3y ago
    Lately, I haven't been seeing the HSA math make sense, at least for a family. The monthly difference between a high deductible plan with a HSA is not cheap enough to cover the deductible gap, and care has gotten a lot more expensive. Either choice will most likely result in medical bankruptcy without some sort of independent wealth. Best to have socialized healthcare and not have to worry about any of this.
    - wombatpm 3y ago
      The only time an HSA worked for me was when it was the plan that had a max on out of pocket payments of 10k. I have a diabetic child and that runs to $1200 per month in out of pocket expenses. When I did the math for deductible, copays, etc it worked in my favor.
    - dhosek 3y ago
      I’ve seen at least two companies where if you sign up for the high deductible plan, the employer will contribute the full deductible amount to an HSA. I suspect this might become an increasingly common option in the benefits menu.
    - tick_tock_tick 3y ago
      You can save receipts for medical care forever and claim them against the HSA years later. The money grows tax free so you basically use it as another 401k. After age 65 or if you become disabled you can start pulling money out of a HSA without a medical cost.
    - 3y ago
throwaway280382 3y ago
>You don't need to worry about being locked out of your 401K after being sacked. It's still your money and they have to give you access to it, even after you're sacked. Transfer the money out to a separate 401K account that only you control after you've left the company. (Or don't, because I'm pretty sure they have to keep your account open indefinitely, but IANAL so ask a professional) You will not be locked out of 401k when you quit but they will charge about $25 per quarter ($100 per year) to maintain your account. I feel it is still a good deal and I left my 401k with my previous employers. so far I have $300k in 401k, so $300/year to maintain the portfolio (across three previous employers) and not messing it up by moving it around seems like a safe deal to me.
- thunky 3y ago
  Converting a 401k to an IRA can mess up future backdoor Roth conversions as well.
- vikingerik 3y ago
  Moving it around wouldn't mess it up. You can move a 401k from a previous employer to a Rollover IRA at any major custodian. This is not a taxable event (you just move pre-tax money to pre-tax money), so it doesn't matter if you sell whatever it's holding and buy the equivalent at a new custodian. The only reason to need to keep a 401k where it is is if that custodian has some unique investment option that you want there that you can't get elsewhere, but that's pretty rare.
  - xeromal 3y ago
    I ran into that with one of my old companies where they had a simple IRA and I had a hard time finding that placement investment company for that
  - ASinclair 3y ago
    Another reason to keep the funds in a 401(k) is to allow you to keep using the Backdoor Roth IRA without worrying about the Pro-rata Rule.
curiousllama 3y ago
> Or don't, because I'm pretty sure they have to keep your account open indefinitely, but IANAL so ask a professional Definitely a life best practice to periodically consolidate these kinds of accounts. Imagine trying to track down your 401k from your time at GE 20 years ago. It definitely exists somewhere, but it would not be fun finding it.
- sfshaw 3y ago
  After 20 years that account might have escheated.
  - rootusrootus 3y ago
    If the plan administrator can't reach you, perhaps.
- greggsy 3y ago
  The Australian Tax Office portal lists all of your active superannuation (or ‘super’, which is basically 401k) accounts, and offers a link to kick off the transfer process. Despite having one of the most contradictory and complex taxation systems in the world, they do make some things very easy.
- dhosek 3y ago
  Most 401(k)s have some periodic maintenance fee. Transferring to a rollover IRA will eliminate that maintenance fee.
  - zeckalpha 3y ago
    But make a Backdoor roth harder
    - dhosek 3y ago
      As far as I can tell, the answer to that is nope. You can do it with a rollover IRA just as easily as with a 401(k).
hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
> Put your money into an HSA rather than an FSA. It's a free extra retirement account. You often can't really pick. To contribute to an HSA, you need to have a high deductible health plan (there have been some pushes in Congress to change this). Whether or not an HDHP makes sense for you really depends on your personal circumstances. Furthermore, you can not contribute to an HSA if you also have a healthcare FSA at the same time (there are other things called "Limited Purpose FSAs", which only cover dental and vision, that can work with an HSA). That said, if you can contribute to an HSA, they are absolutely the best tax deal around, as they are one of the only vehicles where (a) you can put money into the account tax free, (b) any growth is tax free, and most HSAs allow you to invest, and (c) if you spend the money on an exempt purpose (something healthcare related), then that's also tax free.
Tangurena2 3y ago
> Transfer the money out to a separate 401K account that only you control after you've left the company. Normally you move the money to a "rollover IRA" account. Every financial institution that offers IRA accounts will have a way to do this. Nowadays, most are automated. The largest players in this space are Fidelity and Vanguard. Your 401k is probably with them already. To put money in an HSA, then you are required (by law) to have a certain type of insurance plan (one with a massive deductible - usually like $5k). FSAs are a totally different type of plan, and it is really common for the money leftover at the end of the year to be donated to the executive bonus program.

scarface74 3y ago

> Document your accomplishments I’ve had a quarterly updated resume and longer form career document for over a decade. I don’t think I’ve ever had to update my resume specifically for a job opportunity. It’s constantly updated. > While you still have access to Slack, ask your manager, previous managers, and/or colleagues you worked closely with if they would be willing to give a reference check for you for your next role. You should already have them as contacts on LinkedIn > Potentially also ask for endorsements on LinkedIn On the other hand LinkedIn is merely a place to keep my contacts. I find it to be more of a self aggrandizing cesspool than Facebook.

Spooky23 3y ago
> On the other hand LinkedIn is merely a place to keep my contacts. I find it to be more of a self aggrandizing cesspool than Facebook. People who post on there with bullshit accomplishments are hilarious. One person in particular who I used to work with had a problem with being “humbled”. As in “I am humbled that the presidential honors society recognized that I am one of the top 12 cyber warriors in my apartment building.” Many of my former colleagues gravitate towards security stuff because there’s a lot of hiring going on and pay is high. So LinkedIn is now littered with would be cyber-commandos clucking about kill chains, ooda loops, and spouting ridiculous military jargon.

wombatpm 3y ago

A Note about FSA vs MSA/HSA. in the United States FSA = Flexible Spending Account. Every year you elect to set aside a certain amount of money. (ie $2000 per benefit year). This money is deducted over the course of the year, but you are eligible to access the entire amount once the benefit year starts. But here is the rub, if you don't spend it you lose the money to whomever is managing the spending account. MSA/HSA = Medical Savings Account/ Health Savings Account You elect to set aside a certain amount of money per paycheck into a tax advantaged account. The Money is deducted per pay period. The Amount accessible is whatever the account balance is. You do not have to spend all of the money in a calendar year. You maintain access to that money forever. Things to consider if you have an FSA account: 1) Are you ahead or behind in your reimbursements vs. payroll contributions. Behind = You have paid more into the account than you have received in reimbursements Ahead = You have paid less into the account than you received in reimbursements. 2) Do you have any expenses that you have not submitted? -- Do that NOW 3) Can you generate new expenses that you can submit for reimbursement before your window closes? Do that NOW. The goal is to be ahead on the curve. Ideally you want to submit expenses that will bring your account balance to $0. Remember when I said if you don't spend it someone else gets to keep it? Well, the flipside is also true. You are able to access the entire balance on Day 1 of the benefit year. If you have valid expenses, you can be reimbursed for the entire balance on Day 2. If the company lays you off on Day3 before you contributed a dime, sucks to be them. The same entity that gets to keep the excess, is the same entity that must make up the difference. So, if your benefits end at the end of the month, now is the time to get new glasses or dental work to draw down that balance - either to $0 or to where you are Ahead. Things to consider if you have an MSA/HSA account: You can use this money for medical-related expenses. It may allow you to maintain your prescriptions and minor health issues long enough for your new job benefits to kick in and avoid the expense of COBRA. You have a certain window after termination to elect for COBRA so its something to consider.

remram 3y ago
Why... does this exist... at all?
- toast0 3y ago

metadat 3y ago

Related discussion from 2 days ago: Effective Immediately: A central hub for people who've been recently laid off (2020) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35670646 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35670646 (98 comments)

ssgodderidge 3y ago

I think this is really smart. I made a runbook for a previously-announced layoff including contacts I'd reach out to, companies I'm interested in, etc. I had a full checklist of activities to help me feel productive if I was laid off. Making that checklist was a really helpful exercise to help calm my mind while I was waiting to find out if I was laid off or not. Thankfully I wasn't laid off this time, but I plan on keeping this list updated over time.

cloudsec9 3y ago

> If you are receiving severance, sign the necessary paperwork as soon as possible so that your first payment is not delayed. > NB: after reading the paperwork to make sure none of the clauses are non-starters for you. PLEASE PLEASE consult with a lawyer to make sure you are getting what is fairly owed to you, and don't sign until you do. In many places you have to be given time to do such a consult; if not then the document isn't binding. If you've consulted and things are okay, then don't delay, I fully agree.