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This is the perfect definition of a strawman argument. There are 2 dominating app stores: - Google/Android app store - IOS app store They have a duopoly in

by m00x 3y ago

This is the perfect definition of a strawman argument. There are 2 dominating app stores: - Google/Android app store - IOS app store They have a duopoly in the mobile market, and they each have a monopoly on their platform. The deli comparison is asinine since there are millions of delis vs 2.

judge2020 3y ago
This is what Epic tried to define the market as, but the court instead went with "mobile gaming transactions".
- nodamage 3y ago
  That's how theses cases usually work. Antitrust claimants want to define the market as narrowly as possible for their own benefit. Defendants want to define it as wide as possible for the same reason. It's up to the court to figure out what the actual market is, and not what the (biased) parties want it to be.
anonymouskimmer 3y ago
You can side load in other app stores in Android. iOS started out with side-loading, but then this was crushed by Apple's exercise of their absolute control of the operating system.
- threeseed 3y ago
  iOS didn't start with side-loading. Do you have a source for this ?
  - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
    What mullingtover refers to.
  - judge2020 3y ago
    The first App Store was Cydia. Technically side-loading with how Apple failed to predict the dedication of breaking the (trivial, at the time) security to add more native apps to the home screen. https://www.engadget.com/2008/02/28/debian-style-installation-arrives-on-iphone/ https://www.engadget.com/2008/02/28/debian-style-installatio...
    - simondotau 3y ago
      Poor security wasn't a feature.
      - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
        Did removing this "bug" make things any more secure than, say, welding the bios chip to a motherboard?
- mullingitover 3y ago
  > iOS started out with side-loading I don't recall sideloading ever being a thing iOS started out with. There was a trivial jailbreak and very easy third party app store install for jailbroken devices, but that was essentially a defect and not something iOS was designed for.
  - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
    Yes, that's what I'm writing about. The feature existed (whether Apple wanted it, or in this case, not). Then they removed it.
    - GeekyBear 3y ago
      You can sideload apps to your own device using a free developer account.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - zakki 3y ago
        While acknowledging that most users are not a developer? Compare it with computer (desktop/laptop) market. Users can install any software they found in internet that they trust it is safe.
        scarface74 3y ago
        How well has the average consumer been able to ascertain the “safety” of apps on PCs over the last two decades?”
        KyeRussell 3y ago
        OK, but the usual counter-argument against the claim that there is genuine security benefit in the current situation, is that “nobody will use it”, “hide it several levels deep in settings”, or whatever. You can’t have it both ways.
        3y ago
- KyeRussell 3y ago
  Genuinely, who do you think is convinced by your comment? You aren’t a lawyer making your case to a jury of dopes. You aren’t going to win everyone over with empty emotive language like “crushed”. To argue that the existence of Cydia means that “Apple started out with side-loading” is intellectually dishonest. I know it, and I know that you know it. If you have a real argument, you shouldn’t need to resort to this.
  - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
    > Genuinely, who do you think is convinced by your comment? People like me who aren't programmers, or even power users anymore. > I know it, and I know that you know it. A long time ago I used to modify the Windows ME registry, and it genuinely created some features doing so. Then they removed this windows-altering ability from the particular feature I was modding and my mods were useless. Maybe the MS programmers saw this as a bug being fixed, but I saw it as a feature being removed. I basically haven't been a Windows power user since ME because of stuff like this. ----- Nothing Apple is doing is materially different from what Microsoft was sued for in the 90s by anti-trust enforcers. In fact, it's a bit more, because it just isn't a default browser, it's control of every app. Apple's share of the US market is just slightly less than Microsoft's was at the time.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ApolloFortyNine 3y ago
>They have a duopoly in the mobile market, and they each have a monopoly on their platform. The deli comparison is asinine since there are millions of delis vs 2. No, Apple is literally hard coded to be the only app store on iOS. You can not install apps not from the app store, and you cannot install other app stores. Installing your app every week by paying $99/year to be a developer is not a viable alternative. On Android you could install another app store within the next 2 minutes if you so desired. This is the perfect definition of a misleading argument.
- m00x 3y ago
  You can sideload on both in Europe since it's required by law. But yes, I agree that Google's strategy is more open, and they allow others to use the Android source code to make their own (Amazon app store, Microsoft, etc). Apple is more of a walled garden and a strict monopoly on their platform (and hardware).
  - 1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago
    "You can sideload on both in Europe since it's required by law." This is in the works, right. It's not possible at this moment, is it. How will Apple prevent people in the USA from buying iPhones in Europe and bringing them back to the US.
    - XajniN 3y ago
      Simply by iPhones being ~40% cheaper in the US.
      - 1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago
        But that's already true right now, irrepective of this coming change, isn't it. To lure US customers, app developers could offer lower prices to users who sideload, to offset the higher price paid for iPhones in the EU. App developers selling to EU iPhone owners will be able to avoid the 30% Apple tax and can pass on the savings to customers. Developers could offer more features to users who sideload. There are a variety of possible incentives developers could offer to lure users away from Apple App Store. That is assuming developers see the long term benefit of getting people to stop using the App Store and avoiding the Apple tax.
sixstringtheory 3y ago
There could be millions of phone OS makers. Nobody is stopping anyone. But nobody is entitled to have provided for them all the work that Apple has done over several decades to get to where they’re at now. Better start working today because you’re gonna need to put in like 50 years.
- m00x 3y ago
  You've described the counterpoint perfectly to your argument. It would take billions of dollars and 50+ years of development to have a chance. You would also need phone partners, which wouldn't go with a small OS maker. So you'd need to make the phones + the OS + the app store. A deli can start anywhere with ~$10k and they'll have clients if they're good enough. It's not feasible to compete with Android + IOS, even Microsoft and Amazon failed. They therefore have a duopoly of the mobile app store market.
  - sixstringtheory 3y ago
    I did state that nobody is entitled to effectively compete with behemoth companies. They’re going to have to put in the work. Every behemoth company you see today did not start out that way. Apple was a couple guys in a garage. At that time, IBM was almost 100 years old, had revenues in the tens of billions and was sending hardware and software into outer space with government contracts. Guess how that company started out? It’s also revealing that you think $10K is a low barrier to entry to a risky business with razor thin margins. And it’s also quite hard work, in terms of physical labor and ongoing time commitment. Most of my life that kind of lump sum was unthinkable, and I have to imagine it still is for many. Yet even in the face of that, some people do find a way. They should do so with smartphones as well, if they feel strongly about it. I think the scales match in terms of barrier to entry to expertise if you want to compare delis and smartphone manufacturing. I think the problems with your comparison are at least twofold: 1) it’s much much easier, in a technical sense, to start a deli vs manufacture a smartphone. Just in Apple, there have been tens to hundreds of millenia of person-time poured into the company. and 2) most people with the expertise necessary to do so are happy with the options available today and would rather spend their time solving other as-yet unsolved problems.
croes 3y ago
But Google has competing app stored, Apple hasn't.

by m00x 3y ago

judge2020 3y ago

This is what Epic tried to define the market as, but the court instead went with "mobile gaming transactions".

nodamage 3y ago
That's how theses cases usually work. Antitrust claimants want to define the market as narrowly as possible for their own benefit. Defendants want to define it as wide as possible for the same reason. It's up to the court to figure out what the actual market is, and not what the (biased) parties want it to be.

anonymouskimmer 3y ago

You can side load in other app stores in Android. iOS started out with side-loading, but then this was crushed by Apple's exercise of their absolute control of the operating system.

threeseed 3y ago
iOS didn't start with side-loading. Do you have a source for this ?
- anonymouskimmer 3y ago
  What mullingtover refers to.
- judge2020 3y ago
  The first App Store was Cydia. Technically side-loading with how Apple failed to predict the dedication of breaking the (trivial, at the time) security to add more native apps to the home screen. https://www.engadget.com/2008/02/28/debian-style-installation-arrives-on-iphone/ https://www.engadget.com/2008/02/28/debian-style-installatio...
  - simondotau 3y ago
    Poor security wasn't a feature.
    - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
      Did removing this "bug" make things any more secure than, say, welding the bios chip to a motherboard?
mullingitover 3y ago
> iOS started out with side-loading I don't recall sideloading ever being a thing iOS started out with. There was a trivial jailbreak and very easy third party app store install for jailbroken devices, but that was essentially a defect and not something iOS was designed for.
- anonymouskimmer 3y ago
  Yes, that's what I'm writing about. The feature existed (whether Apple wanted it, or in this case, not). Then they removed it.
  - GeekyBear 3y ago
    You can sideload apps to your own device using a free developer account.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - zakki 3y ago
      While acknowledging that most users are not a developer? Compare it with computer (desktop/laptop) market. Users can install any software they found in internet that they trust it is safe.
      - scarface74 3y ago
        How well has the average consumer been able to ascertain the “safety” of apps on PCs over the last two decades?”
      - KyeRussell 3y ago
        OK, but the usual counter-argument against the claim that there is genuine security benefit in the current situation, is that “nobody will use it”, “hide it several levels deep in settings”, or whatever. You can’t have it both ways.
      - 3y ago
KyeRussell 3y ago
Genuinely, who do you think is convinced by your comment? You aren’t a lawyer making your case to a jury of dopes. You aren’t going to win everyone over with empty emotive language like “crushed”. To argue that the existence of Cydia means that “Apple started out with side-loading” is intellectually dishonest. I know it, and I know that you know it. If you have a real argument, you shouldn’t need to resort to this.
- anonymouskimmer 3y ago
  > Genuinely, who do you think is convinced by your comment? People like me who aren't programmers, or even power users anymore. > I know it, and I know that you know it. A long time ago I used to modify the Windows ME registry, and it genuinely created some features doing so. Then they removed this windows-altering ability from the particular feature I was modding and my mods were useless. Maybe the MS programmers saw this as a bug being fixed, but I saw it as a feature being removed. I basically haven't been a Windows power user since ME because of stuff like this. ----- Nothing Apple is doing is materially different from what Microsoft was sued for in the 90s by anti-trust enforcers. In fact, it's a bit more, because it just isn't a default browser, it's control of every app. Apple's share of the US market is just slightly less than Microsoft's was at the time.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

ApolloFortyNine 3y ago

>They have a duopoly in the mobile market, and they each have a monopoly on their platform. The deli comparison is asinine since there are millions of delis vs 2. No, Apple is literally hard coded to be the only app store on iOS. You can not install apps not from the app store, and you cannot install other app stores. Installing your app every week by paying $99/year to be a developer is not a viable alternative. On Android you could install another app store within the next 2 minutes if you so desired. This is the perfect definition of a misleading argument.

m00x 3y ago
You can sideload on both in Europe since it's required by law. But yes, I agree that Google's strategy is more open, and they allow others to use the Android source code to make their own (Amazon app store, Microsoft, etc). Apple is more of a walled garden and a strict monopoly on their platform (and hardware).
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago
  "You can sideload on both in Europe since it's required by law." This is in the works, right. It's not possible at this moment, is it. How will Apple prevent people in the USA from buying iPhones in Europe and bringing them back to the US.
  - XajniN 3y ago
    Simply by iPhones being ~40% cheaper in the US.
    - 1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago
      But that's already true right now, irrepective of this coming change, isn't it. To lure US customers, app developers could offer lower prices to users who sideload, to offset the higher price paid for iPhones in the EU. App developers selling to EU iPhone owners will be able to avoid the 30% Apple tax and can pass on the savings to customers. Developers could offer more features to users who sideload. There are a variety of possible incentives developers could offer to lure users away from Apple App Store. That is assuming developers see the long term benefit of getting people to stop using the App Store and avoiding the Apple tax.

sixstringtheory 3y ago

There could be millions of phone OS makers. Nobody is stopping anyone. But nobody is entitled to have provided for them all the work that Apple has done over several decades to get to where they’re at now. Better start working today because you’re gonna need to put in like 50 years.

m00x 3y ago
You've described the counterpoint perfectly to your argument. It would take billions of dollars and 50+ years of development to have a chance. You would also need phone partners, which wouldn't go with a small OS maker. So you'd need to make the phones + the OS + the app store. A deli can start anywhere with ~$10k and they'll have clients if they're good enough. It's not feasible to compete with Android + IOS, even Microsoft and Amazon failed. They therefore have a duopoly of the mobile app store market.
- sixstringtheory 3y ago
  I did state that nobody is entitled to effectively compete with behemoth companies. They’re going to have to put in the work. Every behemoth company you see today did not start out that way. Apple was a couple guys in a garage. At that time, IBM was almost 100 years old, had revenues in the tens of billions and was sending hardware and software into outer space with government contracts. Guess how that company started out? It’s also revealing that you think $10K is a low barrier to entry to a risky business with razor thin margins. And it’s also quite hard work, in terms of physical labor and ongoing time commitment. Most of my life that kind of lump sum was unthinkable, and I have to imagine it still is for many. Yet even in the face of that, some people do find a way. They should do so with smartphones as well, if they feel strongly about it. I think the scales match in terms of barrier to entry to expertise if you want to compare delis and smartphone manufacturing. I think the problems with your comparison are at least twofold: 1) it’s much much easier, in a technical sense, to start a deli vs manufacture a smartphone. Just in Apple, there have been tens to hundreds of millenia of person-time poured into the company. and 2) most people with the expertise necessary to do so are happy with the options available today and would rather spend their time solving other as-yet unsolved problems.

croes 3y ago

But Google has competing app stored, Apple hasn't.