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> So, option A is you go to college, immediately get a job with zero hurdles up front, sit behind a desk from 9-5, and collect a solid paycheck. Ask the cohort

> So, option A is you go to college, immediately get a job with zero hurdles up front, sit behind a desk from 9-5, and collect a solid paycheck. Ask the cohort of 2008-2011 how well that worked out for them. And in case it isn't obvious for someone - that's been the largest labor participation rate drop in modern history. On top of that, many people with college degrees from that period never actually landed a well-paying job and are still stuck in service and low-wage manual labor jobs. I bet many of them would have loved to have a trade job instead. Meanwhile, HVAC guys near me charge $700 to run a thermostat wire 5 feet. I mean maybe it sucks to work trades in a low COL area, but the tradesmen where I live make bank and have no trouble charging $80+/hr

HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
How many hours per week are they billing?
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  And how many hours do they spend traveling from place to place? I suspect the total pay divided by total hours is nowhere near as impressive, even assuming they are W-2 employees with a full set of tax advantaged benefits that a usual white collar employee would have.
- antisthenes 4y ago
  The answer to that really is as many hours as they want. If they want to work more hours, they can lower their rate and advertise it as such. But if we're talking peak season for HVAC (e.g. May through September) then they have no problem working literally as much as they want at their full rate. Everyone is booked 4-5 days out during this period.
com2kid 4y ago
> I mean maybe it sucks to work trades in a low COL area, but the tradesmen where I live make bank and have no trouble charging $80+/hr My neighbor just paid $100 an hour to have his fence painted. Actual tradesmen earn a lot more. I've talked to more than one plumber who has a really nice house, better than anything I can afford as a software engineer, unless I get lucky with stock options at some point.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- bluGill 4y ago
  Plumbers probably know a contractor who can give a deal. I used to know one who let his employees use the business account/discount to build their own house, and employees would help each other build. Many would have traded general labor with the plumber.
  - com2kid 4y ago
    > Plumbers probably know a contractor who can give a deal. They also know the contractors who won't rip them off. A house down the block from me has taken nearly a year to have siding put on and painted, in less time than that has taken, another house by me was torn down and a completely new one built in its place. It all depends on who you know.
    - Tangurena2 4y ago
      Or it could be the homeowner. My sister constantly price-shops and bickers over everything. As a result, she can't get workers/contractors. Some never show up, most never come back. If the contractor has an office, they're too big for her and as she puts it "they want too much money".
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
dsfyu404ed 4y ago
>Meanwhile, HVAC guys near me charge $700 to run a thermostat wire 5 feet. How much of that is supply and demand and how much of that is regulatory capture making the industry a misshapen pyramid where the few license holders at the top can just rake in the money?
- antisthenes 4y ago
  I think a lot of it was just that I got a company that overcharges for that particular service. Their rates for other stuff (e.g. refill refrigerant, service AC, replace compressor) were much more reasonable. They actually connected all the wiring after I ran it for 1/10th of the cost of running it, despite taking the same amount of time as I did to run it. But I also don't doubt that many people (high COL area) will just end up paying the price.
  - gizmo686 4y ago
    Is it overcharging, or fixed price charging. Running wires is typically a much larger project than it was in your case; and there is an adverse selection where people are more likely to hire for the more difficult jobs. Because of this, their price point for wireing probably assumes they will be going through walls, the floor, snaking it through the wooden frame in the floor/ceiling. The other tasks you mentioned all seem like they would be fairly consistent in terms of time and effort, so a fixed price is reasonable.
- twothamendment 4y ago
  When I did drywall we'd quote insane prices like that for small patch jobs. I asked my boss about one of those bids and he said he'd quote them that high because he didn't want the job, but if they took it he do it with a smile and make sure it was perfect.
SantalBlush 4y ago
A lot of people here aren't getting it. There is allegedly a huge pile of money waiting to be scooped up by newcomers, if only they would learn a trade. Think about this premise. If something about it doesn't quite make sense, that's because it's untrue. You might as well encourage people to try out for the NBA because you "know a guy" who makes millions playing basketball.
- cheese_van 4y ago
  Playing up the "huge pile of money" angle may be wholly fictional. Or not. A much more responsible description is that a trade is very likely to provide independence and a fairly stable work-life, albeit hardworking. Perhaps an antique perspective, but its dispiriting to me that indecent amounts of money have become a more compelling goal, or glamorized as a goal, than an ordinary life of stability and independence from want. For most of us, its the stability that allows us the time and environment to grow as people, not the fairy tale dream of following one's "passion".
  - SantalBlush 4y ago
    Many--and I mean many--trades do not provide stable work whatsoever. If we remove the fiction and get to the truth, it is this: most jobs in the trades suck, and that's why people don't want them. It is the simplest answer, and it's staring everyone in the face, but they tenaciously deny it because they have romanticized the trades in their head, usually based on a few weekend experiences where they got out of the office and got their hands dirty for a few hours and loved it. They do not understand the physical toll that years of repetitive motion takes, or the financial risk involved. The trades often have a low barrier to entry, which means they are competitive, which means for a lot of tradespeople out there, jobs are done at razor-thin margins or at a loss. To improve revenue, deadlines are sped up, safety regs are ignored, the cheapest labor is hired, and it becomes a grueling shitshow. There is nothing romantic about it. It sucks. I used to do it, and I'm way better off physically and financially now that I've left.
- splistud 4y ago
  [dead]
karlkatzke 4y ago
> Meanwhile, HVAC guys near me charge $700 to run a thermostat wire 5 feet. Yes, in many areas that’s what it costs for a worker and helper to not be able to work on another more profitable job to do the job for you that only takes fifteen minutes. He still has to spend 30 minutes driving and maintain the same liability insurance and van lease and helper pay. Part of the problem people don’t want to go into the direct to consumer trades is that the jobs are physically demanding, intellectually demanding (keep up on code changes, lots of esoteric knowledge about situations rarely encountered, and then there’s the customer service angle with homeowners that insist “it shouldn’t cost that much to run a wire five feet.”
thatfrenchguy 4y ago
> Meanwhile, HVAC guys near me charge $700 to run a thermostat wire 5 feet. I mean, yes, if there's a blocker in your wall, no crawl space / attic, it can be bitchy pretty fast

HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago

How many hours per week are they billing?

lotsofpulp 4y ago
And how many hours do they spend traveling from place to place? I suspect the total pay divided by total hours is nowhere near as impressive, even assuming they are W-2 employees with a full set of tax advantaged benefits that a usual white collar employee would have.
antisthenes 4y ago
The answer to that really is as many hours as they want. If they want to work more hours, they can lower their rate and advertise it as such. But if we're talking peak season for HVAC (e.g. May through September) then they have no problem working literally as much as they want at their full rate. Everyone is booked 4-5 days out during this period.

com2kid 4y ago

> I mean maybe it sucks to work trades in a low COL area, but the tradesmen where I live make bank and have no trouble charging $80+/hr My neighbor just paid $100 an hour to have his fence painted. Actual tradesmen earn a lot more. I've talked to more than one plumber who has a really nice house, better than anything I can afford as a software engineer, unless I get lucky with stock options at some point.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
bluGill 4y ago
Plumbers probably know a contractor who can give a deal. I used to know one who let his employees use the business account/discount to build their own house, and employees would help each other build. Many would have traded general labor with the plumber.
- com2kid 4y ago
  > Plumbers probably know a contractor who can give a deal. They also know the contractors who won't rip them off. A house down the block from me has taken nearly a year to have siding put on and painted, in less time than that has taken, another house by me was torn down and a completely new one built in its place. It all depends on who you know.
  - Tangurena2 4y ago
    Or it could be the homeowner. My sister constantly price-shops and bickers over everything. As a result, she can't get workers/contractors. Some never show up, most never come back. If the contractor has an office, they're too big for her and as she puts it "they want too much money".

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

dsfyu404ed 4y ago

>Meanwhile, HVAC guys near me charge $700 to run a thermostat wire 5 feet. How much of that is supply and demand and how much of that is regulatory capture making the industry a misshapen pyramid where the few license holders at the top can just rake in the money?

antisthenes 4y ago
I think a lot of it was just that I got a company that overcharges for that particular service. Their rates for other stuff (e.g. refill refrigerant, service AC, replace compressor) were much more reasonable. They actually connected all the wiring after I ran it for 1/10th of the cost of running it, despite taking the same amount of time as I did to run it. But I also don't doubt that many people (high COL area) will just end up paying the price.
- gizmo686 4y ago
  Is it overcharging, or fixed price charging. Running wires is typically a much larger project than it was in your case; and there is an adverse selection where people are more likely to hire for the more difficult jobs. Because of this, their price point for wireing probably assumes they will be going through walls, the floor, snaking it through the wooden frame in the floor/ceiling. The other tasks you mentioned all seem like they would be fairly consistent in terms of time and effort, so a fixed price is reasonable.
twothamendment 4y ago
When I did drywall we'd quote insane prices like that for small patch jobs. I asked my boss about one of those bids and he said he'd quote them that high because he didn't want the job, but if they took it he do it with a smile and make sure it was perfect.

SantalBlush 4y ago

A lot of people here aren't getting it. There is allegedly a huge pile of money waiting to be scooped up by newcomers, if only they would learn a trade. Think about this premise. If something about it doesn't quite make sense, that's because it's untrue. You might as well encourage people to try out for the NBA because you "know a guy" who makes millions playing basketball.

cheese_van 4y ago
Playing up the "huge pile of money" angle may be wholly fictional. Or not. A much more responsible description is that a trade is very likely to provide independence and a fairly stable work-life, albeit hardworking. Perhaps an antique perspective, but its dispiriting to me that indecent amounts of money have become a more compelling goal, or glamorized as a goal, than an ordinary life of stability and independence from want. For most of us, its the stability that allows us the time and environment to grow as people, not the fairy tale dream of following one's "passion".
- SantalBlush 4y ago
  Many--and I mean many--trades do not provide stable work whatsoever. If we remove the fiction and get to the truth, it is this: most jobs in the trades suck, and that's why people don't want them. It is the simplest answer, and it's staring everyone in the face, but they tenaciously deny it because they have romanticized the trades in their head, usually based on a few weekend experiences where they got out of the office and got their hands dirty for a few hours and loved it. They do not understand the physical toll that years of repetitive motion takes, or the financial risk involved. The trades often have a low barrier to entry, which means they are competitive, which means for a lot of tradespeople out there, jobs are done at razor-thin margins or at a loss. To improve revenue, deadlines are sped up, safety regs are ignored, the cheapest labor is hired, and it becomes a grueling shitshow. There is nothing romantic about it. It sucks. I used to do it, and I'm way better off physically and financially now that I've left.
splistud 4y ago
[dead]

karlkatzke 4y ago

> Meanwhile, HVAC guys near me charge $700 to run a thermostat wire 5 feet. Yes, in many areas that’s what it costs for a worker and helper to not be able to work on another more profitable job to do the job for you that only takes fifteen minutes. He still has to spend 30 minutes driving and maintain the same liability insurance and van lease and helper pay. Part of the problem people don’t want to go into the direct to consumer trades is that the jobs are physically demanding, intellectually demanding (keep up on code changes, lots of esoteric knowledge about situations rarely encountered, and then there’s the customer service angle with homeowners that insist “it shouldn’t cost that much to run a wire five feet.”

thatfrenchguy 4y ago

> Meanwhile, HVAC guys near me charge $700 to run a thermostat wire 5 feet. I mean, yes, if there's a blocker in your wall, no crawl space / attic, it can be bitchy pretty fast