5 ms·

> What is not ok is opt-out telemetry for personalisation for advertising Opt-out telemetry is also not ok for product decisions. It's a dark pattern that show

> What is not ok is opt-out telemetry for personalisation for advertising Opt-out telemetry is also not ok for product decisions. It's a dark pattern that shows no respect for user privacy.

abigail95 3y ago
What's the difference between telemetry from the client side, and aggregate logs of server api endpoints? Assume no PII, what's the difference? What do you mean by dark pattern?
- wootland 3y ago
  I would say server side logging is one of the many downsides to SaaS based products and makes a great argument for running things locally. Any additional tracking of users exacerbates the problem.
  - abigail95 3y ago
    For a password manager I'm in full agreement, but the gap between running something like SAP Cloud vs On-Premises is very costly. There are tradeoffs where it's worth it.
- yamtaddle 3y ago
  Server logs can't watch your every move, even when you're not intentionally creating network requests. "Telemetry" is spyware, full stop.
danpalmer 3y ago
Why? If everything works as it is supposed to then the only result is a better product. It may not work correctly, and there's some risk there, but it's pretty low risk. A poor implementation may cause UX regressions, but the company have incentive to not do that.
- wootland 3y ago
  > Why? Because I value my privacy, period. > If everything works as it is supposed to then the only result is a better product. After 20+ years in the industry, I've never once seen this to be the case. I can't think of a single product that used telemetry that I'd consider to be of high quality. It has always been a sign that there's no captian on the ship though. > It may not work correctly, and there's some risk there, but it's pretty low risk. I'm unwilling to take on any risk to prop up a poorly run product team.
bwoodruff 3y ago
I wrote more about the consent aspect here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35706897 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35706897 tl;dr If we roll this out to customers, we'll be asking for consent, and won't be collecting telemetry data unless we have it. -Ben, 1Password

> What is not ok is opt-out telemetry for personalisation for advertising Opt-out telemetry is also not ok for product decisions. It's a dark pattern that shows no respect for user privacy.

abigail95 3y ago

What's the difference between telemetry from the client side, and aggregate logs of server api endpoints? Assume no PII, what's the difference? What do you mean by dark pattern?

wootland 3y ago
I would say server side logging is one of the many downsides to SaaS based products and makes a great argument for running things locally. Any additional tracking of users exacerbates the problem.
- abigail95 3y ago
  For a password manager I'm in full agreement, but the gap between running something like SAP Cloud vs On-Premises is very costly. There are tradeoffs where it's worth it.
yamtaddle 3y ago
Server logs can't watch your every move, even when you're not intentionally creating network requests. "Telemetry" is spyware, full stop.

danpalmer 3y ago

Why? If everything works as it is supposed to then the only result is a better product. It may not work correctly, and there's some risk there, but it's pretty low risk. A poor implementation may cause UX regressions, but the company have incentive to not do that.

wootland 3y ago
> Why? Because I value my privacy, period. > If everything works as it is supposed to then the only result is a better product. After 20+ years in the industry, I've never once seen this to be the case. I can't think of a single product that used telemetry that I'd consider to be of high quality. It has always been a sign that there's no captian on the ship though. > It may not work correctly, and there's some risk there, but it's pretty low risk. I'm unwilling to take on any risk to prop up a poorly run product team.

bwoodruff 3y ago

I wrote more about the consent aspect here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35706897 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35706897 tl;dr If we roll this out to customers, we'll be asking for consent, and won't be collecting telemetry data unless we have it. -Ben, 1Password