3 ms·

>Electricity isn't hard. I agree that we absolutely need to make regulation here more efficient, but I think this attitude is not effective. Electricity is har

>Electricity isn't hard. I agree that we absolutely need to make regulation here more efficient, but I think this attitude is not effective. Electricity is hard, and getting it wrong ruins lives. It's OK to say that something is both hard but also perfectly learnable by most people. They aren't mutually exclusive. As soon as we learn something, we tend to say "it's not hard, really" to people starting that same journey. I think a lot of people unjustly reserve the word "hard" for only the highest degrees of complexity. But it's a useful word - we don't want to discourage anybody, but we also want to maintain a healthy respect for how much work you need to do to properly learn some things.

robcohen 4y ago
I reserve “hard” for skills/knowledge that a person who is average can succeed doing/knowing with significant motivation. Very few things are actually hard in the sense that it requires intelligence or motivation way beyond that. Iron man races are hard. Getting a CFA is hard. Becoming a software architect is hard. Electricity is simply not hard. Anyone can learn it. We should democratize these skills so we’re all more capable people.
citrin_ru 4y ago
Both theory and practice IMHO can be learned by motivated person in a year, but to get even a journeyman license one needs to work 4 years (may vary by state) as an apprentice being paid pennies and not necessary receiving all necessary knowledge.
- citrin_ru 4y ago
  A requirement to work 4 years being paid very little before you can get license and be paid for the work strongly reminds me servitude. If it was only about knowledge it should have been possible to demonstrate it by passing a hard exam, but one not allowed to take an exam until servitude if paid off.
  - claytongulick 4y ago
    And how much do you get paid while going to college for those four years?
    - flangola7 4y ago
      It clearly isn't the same. We are not selling our labor for pennies on the dollar to someone else.
      - claytongulick 4y ago
        You are getting trained during an apprenticeship. You're literally being paid to learn. And pretty well! For example, an apprentice welder has an average salary of close to 50k/yr [1], a senior apprentice welder is closer to 60k. In Florida, it's a bit more for electricians [2]. Even the lowest salary range I can find for apprentice electricians is in the high 30's. Is that pennies? The college grad comes out with a degree and anywhere from 50-200k of debt. The apprentice made 200k during those four years. That's a 400k difference over four years. And the tradesman is poised to make the same, if not more, than the college grad after that. Oh, and I'm not sure what industry you work in, but everyone who is employed by a profitable business sells their labor for pennies on the dollar, otherwise the business wouldn't be profitable. [1] https://www.salaryexpert.com/salary/job/welder-apprentice/united-states/florida https://www.salaryexpert.com/salary/job/welder-apprentice/un... [2] https://www.salary.com/research/salary/alternate/electrician-apprentice-salary/fl https://www.salary.com/research/salary/alternate/electrician...
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - gww 4y ago
    It also sounds like graduate school for scientists.
ars 4y ago
> Electricity is hard, and getting it wrong ruins lives. No it's not hard. You can learn to run the majority of residential electricity (outlets, switches, lights) in a week. Another week or 2 and you can install panels. It's commercial and especially industrial electricity that is hard. But we insist on training electricians to do all of it, when we mostly need the easier stuff. And it's pretty hard to ruin someone's life with incorrectly installed electricity. Incorrectly meaning: "I didn't realize I needed to do this", rather than "I'm doing garbage work, like not tightening screws".
- tuatoru 4y ago
  That would be fine if someone trained to the lower level would "kick the job upstairs" when they come across a situation outside their experience. But without much experience it's hard to know when you're out of your depth, and nearly everyone has the same attitude: "how hard can it be? I'll just go ahead." The regulations are there at the behest of the insurance industry, after much costly, hard-learned history. Many people lost their lives, in fires mainly. I'd call that ruined.
  - rfrey 4y ago
    Graduated licensing is normal in many industries.
notatoad 4y ago
"electricity isn't hard" is obviously oversimplifying things a bit. there's definitely some skill involved in electrical work. perhaps it would be better to say that a lot of electrical work is well within the skillset of a general contractor, and doesn't require a multi-year apprenticeship to learn. something like installing fixtures is a task that anybody is capable of, but instead the contractor has to call the electrician back in after the finishes are installed to do it, because we don't trust the general to do it safely. that's a waste of everybody's time and resources.
thatfrenchguy 4y ago
Residential electricity is not that hard, the main issue is that the trade makes it harder than it should be by sticking to outdated practices: my dad who did a lot of electrical back in France always laugh at me when I tell him people still use EMT or wire nuts (seriously guys, wire nuts are literally illegal in France by code, and lever nuts and screw nuts are so much easier), and is scared that we don't have GFCIs/RCDs before our main breaker here. A lot of it is market capture by established trade folks.
- inferiorhuman 4y ago
  GFCI receptacles have been required in many locations by code going on four decades. Practically speaking IDK if there's a huge safety difference between having the interrupter in the breaker or receptacle. Regardless of where they're installed GFCIs in the US trip at a much lower current (~5 mA) than those in Europe (~30 mA). As well GFCI receptacles here are often wired up so that they protect downstream receptacles, which I think may be uncommon in Europe? In terms of safety there's plenty of stuff that makes me uncomfortable, but using GFCI receptacles instead of breakers doesn't. A lot of it is market capture by established trade folks. In terms of GFCIs and wire nuts, no, I don't think so. The cost is dramatically lower for wire nuts and GFCI receptacles than for GFCI/RCD breakers and lever nuts. I just picked up a ten pack of Wago lever nuts at Home Depot for $7 – Grainger/Zoro recently stopped carrying Wagos. Wire nuts are way cheaper and easier to find. For small jobs it's not a big deal but for a larger one it adds up. For a low/no vibration environment wire nuts can be done completely safely (pull test!), but are not as foolproof as lever nuts. If anything I'd say that there's regulatory capture from the manufacturers, take a look at the price of a breaker with an arc fault interrupter (now required by code on most circuits) and the litany of complaints about nuisance tripping and power draw.
  - cduzz 4y ago
    I had an AFCI breaker constantly tripping when put under load. I went through and replaced every receptacle in the circuit (everything in the house is nasty stuff from the 1950s). Still tripped constantly. Opened up every box going back to the breaker, took everything apart, but a test outlet with a test load on each junction and it was "fine" until I put it all back together and started tripping again (replaced the wire nuts, pull tested each junction). Opened up every junction again, replaced every junction with wagos, and no more "nuisance" trips (they were clearly not nuisance trips, though every electrician said "they all do that I just replace the AFCI breaker when the inspector finishes, I'd do that here if you wanted me to fix the nuisance trips here") But of course, I don't pay (money) for my own time... and fixing this wasn't fast.
Ekaros 4y ago
It is not too hard. But on other hand you must get it right each and every time and that is hard. There is quite many ways to make eventually dangerous stuff. And this isn't just your program crashing, but potential fire inside a wall or socket. Or electrocution of person. And that is why it must be gotten right everytime.

robcohen 4y ago

I reserve “hard” for skills/knowledge that a person who is average can succeed doing/knowing with significant motivation. Very few things are actually hard in the sense that it requires intelligence or motivation way beyond that. Iron man races are hard. Getting a CFA is hard. Becoming a software architect is hard. Electricity is simply not hard. Anyone can learn it. We should democratize these skills so we’re all more capable people.

citrin_ru 4y ago

Both theory and practice IMHO can be learned by motivated person in a year, but to get even a journeyman license one needs to work 4 years (may vary by state) as an apprentice being paid pennies and not necessary receiving all necessary knowledge.

citrin_ru 4y ago
A requirement to work 4 years being paid very little before you can get license and be paid for the work strongly reminds me servitude. If it was only about knowledge it should have been possible to demonstrate it by passing a hard exam, but one not allowed to take an exam until servitude if paid off.
- claytongulick 4y ago
  And how much do you get paid while going to college for those four years?
  - flangola7 4y ago
    It clearly isn't the same. We are not selling our labor for pennies on the dollar to someone else.
    - claytongulick 4y ago
      You are getting trained during an apprenticeship. You're literally being paid to learn. And pretty well! For example, an apprentice welder has an average salary of close to 50k/yr [1], a senior apprentice welder is closer to 60k. In Florida, it's a bit more for electricians [2]. Even the lowest salary range I can find for apprentice electricians is in the high 30's. Is that pennies? The college grad comes out with a degree and anywhere from 50-200k of debt. The apprentice made 200k during those four years. That's a 400k difference over four years. And the tradesman is poised to make the same, if not more, than the college grad after that. Oh, and I'm not sure what industry you work in, but everyone who is employed by a profitable business sells their labor for pennies on the dollar, otherwise the business wouldn't be profitable. [1] https://www.salaryexpert.com/salary/job/welder-apprentice/united-states/florida https://www.salaryexpert.com/salary/job/welder-apprentice/un... [2] https://www.salary.com/research/salary/alternate/electrician-apprentice-salary/fl https://www.salary.com/research/salary/alternate/electrician...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- gww 4y ago
  It also sounds like graduate school for scientists.

ars 4y ago

> Electricity is hard, and getting it wrong ruins lives. No it's not hard. You can learn to run the majority of residential electricity (outlets, switches, lights) in a week. Another week or 2 and you can install panels. It's commercial and especially industrial electricity that is hard. But we insist on training electricians to do all of it, when we mostly need the easier stuff. And it's pretty hard to ruin someone's life with incorrectly installed electricity. Incorrectly meaning: "I didn't realize I needed to do this", rather than "I'm doing garbage work, like not tightening screws".

tuatoru 4y ago
That would be fine if someone trained to the lower level would "kick the job upstairs" when they come across a situation outside their experience. But without much experience it's hard to know when you're out of your depth, and nearly everyone has the same attitude: "how hard can it be? I'll just go ahead." The regulations are there at the behest of the insurance industry, after much costly, hard-learned history. Many people lost their lives, in fires mainly. I'd call that ruined.
- rfrey 4y ago
  Graduated licensing is normal in many industries.

notatoad 4y ago

"electricity isn't hard" is obviously oversimplifying things a bit. there's definitely some skill involved in electrical work. perhaps it would be better to say that a lot of electrical work is well within the skillset of a general contractor, and doesn't require a multi-year apprenticeship to learn. something like installing fixtures is a task that anybody is capable of, but instead the contractor has to call the electrician back in after the finishes are installed to do it, because we don't trust the general to do it safely. that's a waste of everybody's time and resources.

thatfrenchguy 4y ago

Residential electricity is not that hard, the main issue is that the trade makes it harder than it should be by sticking to outdated practices: my dad who did a lot of electrical back in France always laugh at me when I tell him people still use EMT or wire nuts (seriously guys, wire nuts are literally illegal in France by code, and lever nuts and screw nuts are so much easier), and is scared that we don't have GFCIs/RCDs before our main breaker here. A lot of it is market capture by established trade folks.

inferiorhuman 4y ago
GFCI receptacles have been required in many locations by code going on four decades. Practically speaking IDK if there's a huge safety difference between having the interrupter in the breaker or receptacle. Regardless of where they're installed GFCIs in the US trip at a much lower current (~5 mA) than those in Europe (~30 mA). As well GFCI receptacles here are often wired up so that they protect downstream receptacles, which I think may be uncommon in Europe? In terms of safety there's plenty of stuff that makes me uncomfortable, but using GFCI receptacles instead of breakers doesn't. A lot of it is market capture by established trade folks. In terms of GFCIs and wire nuts, no, I don't think so. The cost is dramatically lower for wire nuts and GFCI receptacles than for GFCI/RCD breakers and lever nuts. I just picked up a ten pack of Wago lever nuts at Home Depot for $7 – Grainger/Zoro recently stopped carrying Wagos. Wire nuts are way cheaper and easier to find. For small jobs it's not a big deal but for a larger one it adds up. For a low/no vibration environment wire nuts can be done completely safely (pull test!), but are not as foolproof as lever nuts. If anything I'd say that there's regulatory capture from the manufacturers, take a look at the price of a breaker with an arc fault interrupter (now required by code on most circuits) and the litany of complaints about nuisance tripping and power draw.
- cduzz 4y ago
  I had an AFCI breaker constantly tripping when put under load. I went through and replaced every receptacle in the circuit (everything in the house is nasty stuff from the 1950s). Still tripped constantly. Opened up every box going back to the breaker, took everything apart, but a test outlet with a test load on each junction and it was "fine" until I put it all back together and started tripping again (replaced the wire nuts, pull tested each junction). Opened up every junction again, replaced every junction with wagos, and no more "nuisance" trips (they were clearly not nuisance trips, though every electrician said "they all do that I just replace the AFCI breaker when the inspector finishes, I'd do that here if you wanted me to fix the nuisance trips here") But of course, I don't pay (money) for my own time... and fixing this wasn't fast.

Ekaros 4y ago

It is not too hard. But on other hand you must get it right each and every time and that is hard. There is quite many ways to make eventually dangerous stuff. And this isn't just your program crashing, but potential fire inside a wall or socket. Or electrocution of person. And that is why it must be gotten right everytime.