4 ms·

> It's "bon vivant", not "bon viveur" According to Wiktionary bon viveur is a valid [English] synonym of bon vivant[0] although noted as "pseudo French" in wik

by agurk 3y ago

> It's "bon vivant", not "bon viveur" According to Wiktionary bon viveur is a valid [English] synonym of bon vivant[0] although noted as "pseudo French" in wiki[1]. [0] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bon_viveur https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bon_viveur [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bon_viveur https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bon_viveur Edit: Clarified that this is an English Language synonym after astute observations from Francophone commenters

bionsystem 3y ago
French here, never heard someone say "bon viveur", pretty sure if you said that in a conversation you would be corrected. "bon vivant" is very common.
justeleblanc 3y ago
The only reference in that wiktionary article is a Polish dictionary. The Wikipedia one has no references. I'm French, and I can tell you with confidence that someone saying "bon viveur" would be met with laughter and contempt. The GP is bashing Europe for "recycling its long tradition of aristocratic affluence" but is at the same time using fancy foreign phrases -- "bon viveur", "nouveau riche"... What is be the reason? Well, to show off and lend credibility to the bashing: "see, I'm part of the circle too, I know the shibboleths; my criticism has more weight because it comes from an insider", is the subliminal message. Using the phrase wrong just looks foolish in these circumstances. Like a child who learned a complicated word and tries to impress with it, but uses it wrong.
- agurk 3y ago
  I can't comment to how one would use that phrase in French, but in English it does seem to be a correct synonym of the French loan-phrase [0][1] - especially in British English. Looking on n-grams it seems to have been used since the mid 19th century. Interestingly in en-GB it was even more popular than bon vivant in the 70s and 80s[2]. I have no opinion on the GP's original use of the phrase, but I don't think noting that a phrase which evolved in a different language to its origin is now different to the original shows too much. [0] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bon%20viveur https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bon%20viveur [1] https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/bon-viveur https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/bon-viv... [2] https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=bon+viveur%2Cbon+vivant&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=en-GB-2019&smoothing=3 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=bon+viveur%2Cb...
  - justeleblanc 3y ago
    I'm not sure using a dated synonym that was only popular in British English is better.

by agurk 3y ago

bionsystem 3y ago

French here, never heard someone say "bon viveur", pretty sure if you said that in a conversation you would be corrected. "bon vivant" is very common.

justeleblanc 3y ago

The only reference in that wiktionary article is a Polish dictionary. The Wikipedia one has no references. I'm French, and I can tell you with confidence that someone saying "bon viveur" would be met with laughter and contempt. The GP is bashing Europe for "recycling its long tradition of aristocratic affluence" but is at the same time using fancy foreign phrases -- "bon viveur", "nouveau riche"... What is be the reason? Well, to show off and lend credibility to the bashing: "see, I'm part of the circle too, I know the shibboleths; my criticism has more weight because it comes from an insider", is the subliminal message. Using the phrase wrong just looks foolish in these circumstances. Like a child who learned a complicated word and tries to impress with it, but uses it wrong.

agurk 3y ago
I can't comment to how one would use that phrase in French, but in English it does seem to be a correct synonym of the French loan-phrase [0][1] - especially in British English. Looking on n-grams it seems to have been used since the mid 19th century. Interestingly in en-GB it was even more popular than bon vivant in the 70s and 80s[2]. I have no opinion on the GP's original use of the phrase, but I don't think noting that a phrase which evolved in a different language to its origin is now different to the original shows too much. [0] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bon%20viveur https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bon%20viveur [1] https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/bon-viveur https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/bon-viv... [2] https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=bon+viveur%2Cbon+vivant&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=en-GB-2019&smoothing=3 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=bon+viveur%2Cb...
- justeleblanc 3y ago
  I'm not sure using a dated synonym that was only popular in British English is better.