5 ms·

You’re business owner. But there is whole cohort of middle managers, that need to justify their existence walking in the office and watching over the shoulders

by lnsru 4y ago

You’re business owner. But there is whole cohort of middle managers, that need to justify their existence walking in the office and watching over the shoulders as well as asking project status reports. Corporate world also needs to build offices or architectural monuments stating, they are very profitable and can afford that. See it’s lots about egos and not always about economics.

tivert 4y ago
> You’re business owner. But there is whole cohort of middle managers, that need to justify their existence walking in the office and watching over the shoulders as well as asking project status reports. Corporate world also needs to build offices or architectural monuments stating, they are very profitable and can afford that. See it’s lots about egos and not always about economics. There are also a lot of arrogant American engineers need to justify their inflated salaries compared to Indians, Eastern Europeans and other offshore workers. With the rise of remote work, we should hopefully see those inflated remote salaries settle to the international norm.
- Tade0 4y ago
  As an Eastern European: it went largely the other way and I'm happy that it did. I mean, I don't make American money - just 50-70% of that, but I also don't have American expenses - especially not on the level seen in SV.
- Aperocky 4y ago
  There is an actual difference in quality (though not as much as the salary differential). Not in small part due to a significant percentage of the best engineers originating in those regions are already here in the United States.
  - monero-xmr 4y ago
    I hire US and Canadian engineers. Canadians working remote aren’t any cheaper when benefits are included than US employees, at least the quality I hire. European engineers are good but the time difference is literally the problem. 5 to 8 hours makes it impossible for me. All in costs are 150k for junior and 280k for top tier including benefits. We have equity but it’s not liquid. If I could hire Indians I would but simply put I have found them to be quite poor quality over many experiences, I assume the good Indian engineers are already employed by solid satellite offices of major US companies or have emigrated.
    - namtab00 4y ago
      oh lord... $150k for junior?! Italian me with 15 years experience and struggling to find a €50k job.. there are platforms like remote.com or deel.com for companies wanting to hire in jurisdictions they don't have a subsidiary in.
      - monero-xmr 4y ago
        Benefits are actually quite generous and expensive when you want to hire top-tier talent. If you factor in good health insurance, payroll tax, 401k match, yearly bonus, various things like cell phone and internet paid for and random free stuff, someone costing 150k cost to me is more like a ~115k salary depending on the region, and of course taxes and retirement expense to the employee will reduce it to more like $70k take-home. But yes, still sounds good to Europeans.
- tkiolp4 4y ago
  > There are also a lot of arrogant American engineers need to justify their inflated salaries compared to Indians, Eastern Europeans and other offshore workers. With the rise of remote work, we should hopefully see those inflated remote salaries settle to the international norm. As much as I support remote work, what you suggests is not the norm. Mainly because companies hire much more employees than contractors. Companies cannot just hire employees from dozens of different countries (unless they have branches on such countries or they hire an intermediary company to handle the taxes/health insurance stuff). Companies cannot just hire people who are +-6h away from their timezone. Companies usually hire remote employees within the country they operate. Which is nice because you can live in a modest town around the nature and work for companies who have originally emerged in the capital.
  - PeterisP 4y ago
    "unless they have branches on such countries or they hire an intermediary company to handle the taxes/health insurance stuff" is a big caveat - for any non-tiny company it's not a big deal to hire an intermediary company, such companies are readily available and the overhead is small compared to the salary differential; it's not a serious obstacle because you can simply buy a solution to that. But that's not the case for time zones, of course.
- throwaway675309 4y ago
  There are a lot of tax complexities around hiring outside the company's country, so I don't think this is going to be as common as you'd like it to be. And if I were you, I would reframe the monetary compensation, rather than saying Westerners are overpaid, perhaps it's non-Westerners who are being underpaid. I don't understand this weird thought process in the software industry where a certain contingent of developers seek to undervalue their own skills against their self interest...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

by lnsru 4y ago

tivert 4y ago

> You’re business owner. But there is whole cohort of middle managers, that need to justify their existence walking in the office and watching over the shoulders as well as asking project status reports. Corporate world also needs to build offices or architectural monuments stating, they are very profitable and can afford that. See it’s lots about egos and not always about economics. There are also a lot of arrogant American engineers need to justify their inflated salaries compared to Indians, Eastern Europeans and other offshore workers. With the rise of remote work, we should hopefully see those inflated remote salaries settle to the international norm.

Tade0 4y ago
As an Eastern European: it went largely the other way and I'm happy that it did. I mean, I don't make American money - just 50-70% of that, but I also don't have American expenses - especially not on the level seen in SV.
Aperocky 4y ago
There is an actual difference in quality (though not as much as the salary differential). Not in small part due to a significant percentage of the best engineers originating in those regions are already here in the United States.
- monero-xmr 4y ago
  I hire US and Canadian engineers. Canadians working remote aren’t any cheaper when benefits are included than US employees, at least the quality I hire. European engineers are good but the time difference is literally the problem. 5 to 8 hours makes it impossible for me. All in costs are 150k for junior and 280k for top tier including benefits. We have equity but it’s not liquid. If I could hire Indians I would but simply put I have found them to be quite poor quality over many experiences, I assume the good Indian engineers are already employed by solid satellite offices of major US companies or have emigrated.
  - namtab00 4y ago
    oh lord... $150k for junior?! Italian me with 15 years experience and struggling to find a €50k job.. there are platforms like remote.com or deel.com for companies wanting to hire in jurisdictions they don't have a subsidiary in.
    - monero-xmr 4y ago
      Benefits are actually quite generous and expensive when you want to hire top-tier talent. If you factor in good health insurance, payroll tax, 401k match, yearly bonus, various things like cell phone and internet paid for and random free stuff, someone costing 150k cost to me is more like a ~115k salary depending on the region, and of course taxes and retirement expense to the employee will reduce it to more like $70k take-home. But yes, still sounds good to Europeans.
tkiolp4 4y ago
> There are also a lot of arrogant American engineers need to justify their inflated salaries compared to Indians, Eastern Europeans and other offshore workers. With the rise of remote work, we should hopefully see those inflated remote salaries settle to the international norm. As much as I support remote work, what you suggests is not the norm. Mainly because companies hire much more employees than contractors. Companies cannot just hire employees from dozens of different countries (unless they have branches on such countries or they hire an intermediary company to handle the taxes/health insurance stuff). Companies cannot just hire people who are +-6h away from their timezone. Companies usually hire remote employees within the country they operate. Which is nice because you can live in a modest town around the nature and work for companies who have originally emerged in the capital.
- PeterisP 4y ago
  "unless they have branches on such countries or they hire an intermediary company to handle the taxes/health insurance stuff" is a big caveat - for any non-tiny company it's not a big deal to hire an intermediary company, such companies are readily available and the overhead is small compared to the salary differential; it's not a serious obstacle because you can simply buy a solution to that. But that's not the case for time zones, of course.
throwaway675309 4y ago
There are a lot of tax complexities around hiring outside the company's country, so I don't think this is going to be as common as you'd like it to be. And if I were you, I would reframe the monetary compensation, rather than saying Westerners are overpaid, perhaps it's non-Westerners who are being underpaid. I don't understand this weird thought process in the software industry where a certain contingent of developers seek to undervalue their own skills against their self interest...

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]