3 ms·

Lots of animals exhibit clear sentience, it's sapience that we're unsure of.

beebeepka 3y ago
Just move the bar of human specialness every time we "discover" humans aren't that much different than everything else. Wars will be fought over this.
- soco 3y ago
  Well there are humans too of which sapience we are not very convinced, so this overlap is gonna be a drag.
  - taneq 3y ago
    Reminds me of that quote about the overlap in intellect between the smartest bears and the dumbest campers being larger than you'd think.
- PartiallyTyped 3y ago
  I am not sure about wars, but there will always be a backlash as the margin for human "exceptionalism" gets tighter.
  - hnbad 3y ago
    We still have surprisingly widespread belief in outdated ideas like young earth creationism or a literally flat Earth. Evolution is rejected by broad swathes of the American population despite even the Catholic church having incorporated it into its mythology. I think if anything the backlash is a constant, true believers have no problem already living in a parallel reality that denies our own.
- hnbad 3y ago
  Why would we fight wars over whether specific animals are sapient? We have no trouble killing, imprisoning and torturing humans. Sapience is a philosophical distinction, not a practical one.
  - AlecSchueler 3y ago
    Currently we tolerate the enslavement of animals but that becomes harder and harder to the point that some people might want to fight others on their behalf.
    - hnbad 3y ago
      That's not a hypothetical. The Animal Liberation Front exists. But that's a small group of people that mostly attacks labs and farms. That's a very different scale and mode than a literal war. Currently we tolerate the enslavement of humans but contrary to popular narratives about the US Civil War, we haven't fought any wars specifically to end slavery of other humans. We have had successful "slave rebellions" (e.g. Haiti, which continues to pay the debt imposed by their former slave masters for "damages and economic losses" to this day) but anti-slavery sentiments among those not in the demographic directly suffering from slavery never went quite that far. The anti-colonialist coup in Portugal was fueled more by the military's resentment over the forever-war required to suppress the colonies than any sympathy for their cause of liberation. The US Civil War was a reaction to the attempted secession of its then-member states rather than specifically their stance on slavery. It's plausible that we'd see acts we'd consider terrorism in the name of animal liberation (arguably some of the ALF's past actions fit into this category) much like we have seen with other liberation movements. But as this is a struggle entirely led by those not themselves in the group of the oppressed, the dynamics are different from most civil rights struggles. Arguably even the abolition of formal slavery in most countries had less to do with zealous support from non-slaves and more with economic factors making slavery less appealing. And even then the countries only got away with slavery in their own mainland while still happily continuing to benefit from overseas slavery, much like we now mostly hide animal suffering in farms, closed trucks and meat processing factories rather than back alleys and town squares.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Actually it is spot on and very practical. All of those examples you give are typically preceded by a strong 'dehumanization' phase, which allows us to overcome the inhibitions that we have ingrained against doing those things to humans.
dr_dshiv 3y ago
Do you have some operational definitions of those words? Sentience means having conscious feelings and sapience means rational thinking?
- mkl 3y ago
  "Sentient" is more about senses. There seems to be a bit of disagreement and overlap, and the way they throw the murky "conscious" into the definitions doesn't help. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sentient https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sentient: Adjective sentient (comparative more sentient, superlative most sentient) 1. Experiencing sensation, thought, or feeling. 2. Able to consciously perceive through the use of sense faculties. 3. (loosely, chiefly science fiction) Possessing human-like awareness and intelligence. Synonyms: sapient; see also Thesaurus:self-aware https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sapient https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sapient: Adjective sapient (comparative more sapient, superlative most sapient) 1. Attempting to appear wise or discerning. 2. (dated) Possessing wisdom and discernment; wise, learned. 3. (chiefly science fiction) Of a species or life-form, possessing intelligence or self-awareness. Synonyms: sentient; see also Thesaurus:self-aware https://www.dictionary.com/browse/sentient https://www.dictionary.com/browse/sentient: adjective 1. having the power of perception by the senses; conscious. 2. characterized by sensation and consciousness. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/sapient https://www.dictionary.com/browse/sapient: adjective 1. having or showing great wisdom or sound judgment. 2. having or showing self-awareness
- tap-snap-or-nap 3y ago
  Humans are making conclusions about animals with ignorance or neglect. Most probably because it is convenient to not give them a higher status.
  - blooalien 3y ago
    It's easier to eat a creature that you don't think of as "sentient" or "sapient" (or "cute")… Although, if it's delicious enough, many humans will overlook even those and sometimes will even pay exorbitant sums of money for the privilege of eating something "rare".

Just move the bar of human specialness every time we "discover" humans aren't that much different than everything else. Wars will be fought over this.

soco 3y ago
Well there are humans too of which sapience we are not very convinced, so this overlap is gonna be a drag.
- taneq 3y ago
  Reminds me of that quote about the overlap in intellect between the smartest bears and the dumbest campers being larger than you'd think.
PartiallyTyped 3y ago
I am not sure about wars, but there will always be a backlash as the margin for human "exceptionalism" gets tighter.
- hnbad 3y ago
  We still have surprisingly widespread belief in outdated ideas like young earth creationism or a literally flat Earth. Evolution is rejected by broad swathes of the American population despite even the Catholic church having incorporated it into its mythology. I think if anything the backlash is a constant, true believers have no problem already living in a parallel reality that denies our own.
hnbad 3y ago
Why would we fight wars over whether specific animals are sapient? We have no trouble killing, imprisoning and torturing humans. Sapience is a philosophical distinction, not a practical one.
- AlecSchueler 3y ago
  Currently we tolerate the enslavement of animals but that becomes harder and harder to the point that some people might want to fight others on their behalf.
  - hnbad 3y ago
    That's not a hypothetical. The Animal Liberation Front exists. But that's a small group of people that mostly attacks labs and farms. That's a very different scale and mode than a literal war. Currently we tolerate the enslavement of humans but contrary to popular narratives about the US Civil War, we haven't fought any wars specifically to end slavery of other humans. We have had successful "slave rebellions" (e.g. Haiti, which continues to pay the debt imposed by their former slave masters for "damages and economic losses" to this day) but anti-slavery sentiments among those not in the demographic directly suffering from slavery never went quite that far. The anti-colonialist coup in Portugal was fueled more by the military's resentment over the forever-war required to suppress the colonies than any sympathy for their cause of liberation. The US Civil War was a reaction to the attempted secession of its then-member states rather than specifically their stance on slavery. It's plausible that we'd see acts we'd consider terrorism in the name of animal liberation (arguably some of the ALF's past actions fit into this category) much like we have seen with other liberation movements. But as this is a struggle entirely led by those not themselves in the group of the oppressed, the dynamics are different from most civil rights struggles. Arguably even the abolition of formal slavery in most countries had less to do with zealous support from non-slaves and more with economic factors making slavery less appealing. And even then the countries only got away with slavery in their own mainland while still happily continuing to benefit from overseas slavery, much like we now mostly hide animal suffering in farms, closed trucks and meat processing factories rather than back alleys and town squares.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Actually it is spot on and very practical. All of those examples you give are typically preceded by a strong 'dehumanization' phase, which allows us to overcome the inhibitions that we have ingrained against doing those things to humans.

dr_dshiv 3y ago

Do you have some operational definitions of those words? Sentience means having conscious feelings and sapience means rational thinking?

mkl 3y ago
"Sentient" is more about senses. There seems to be a bit of disagreement and overlap, and the way they throw the murky "conscious" into the definitions doesn't help. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sentient https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sentient: Adjective sentient (comparative more sentient, superlative most sentient) 1. Experiencing sensation, thought, or feeling. 2. Able to consciously perceive through the use of sense faculties. 3. (loosely, chiefly science fiction) Possessing human-like awareness and intelligence. Synonyms: sapient; see also Thesaurus:self-aware https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sapient https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sapient: Adjective sapient (comparative more sapient, superlative most sapient) 1. Attempting to appear wise or discerning. 2. (dated) Possessing wisdom and discernment; wise, learned. 3. (chiefly science fiction) Of a species or life-form, possessing intelligence or self-awareness. Synonyms: sentient; see also Thesaurus:self-aware https://www.dictionary.com/browse/sentient https://www.dictionary.com/browse/sentient: adjective 1. having the power of perception by the senses; conscious. 2. characterized by sensation and consciousness. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/sapient https://www.dictionary.com/browse/sapient: adjective 1. having or showing great wisdom or sound judgment. 2. having or showing self-awareness
tap-snap-or-nap 3y ago
Humans are making conclusions about animals with ignorance or neglect. Most probably because it is convenient to not give them a higher status.
- blooalien 3y ago
  It's easier to eat a creature that you don't think of as "sentient" or "sapient" (or "cute")… Although, if it's delicious enough, many humans will overlook even those and sometimes will even pay exorbitant sums of money for the privilege of eating something "rare".