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> His $80k Tesla was $2M cheaper than a Bugatti Veyron. Clearly Tesla's are way cheaper than gas cars. Silly comparisons are fun I suppose, but for someone who

by jjav 4y ago

> His $80k Tesla was $2M cheaper than a Bugatti Veyron. Clearly Tesla's are way cheaper than gas cars. Silly comparisons are fun I suppose, but for someone who is poor ultimately the only comparison that matters is how much will it cost this year. The cheapest non-salvage Tesla I see on craigslist right now is 30K. I also see tons of 2K-4K Honda/Toyota/Mazda cars that will give someone plenty of low-cost miles for years to come. It is not realistic to think a poor person will buy a 30K car on the hope that in a few decades the operating costs will break even and eventually save them money. > At 4mi/kWh, 11¢/kWh Here with PG&E they charge 33c/kWh after midnight, or 56c/kWh during peak hours.

retrocryptid 4y ago
Even if electricity was free, it would take 10s (if not 100s) of thousands of miles to make up for the initial price difference. But the future isn't written yet. It's entirely possible that gasoline will be $10/gallon next year and electricity may be free. In which case, it will only take 175,000 miles to break even. Also, I think we're conflating two stories here. The first is about the SPECIFIC example of me and my brother. He bought an expensive car, I bought an inexpensive car. It's going to be at least another 300k miles before my gas expenses meet the price difference. At that point he can certainly start teasing me about how expensive my car is to operate. But I will still be able to call him a reactionary imperialist whose only interest is cheating the proletariat out of their right to travel in the HOV lane unimpeded by bourgeois singletons. The second story is the general case, where someone who needs a car wants to compare the total cost of ownership of a Tesla vs. some other random non-EV. Let's also make the other random non-EV reasonably nice because if you're bougie enough to consider a Tesla, you would NEVER be seen in a Hyundai Accent. Bing tells me the MSRP on a 2023 Camry is $27k which is DANG CLOSE to a current Tesla after you throw in government credit. But the Camry can go 500 miles on a tank of gas and if you get the long range Tesla, the price starts going up. So there is a bit of a question here about how you might use your car (I mostly only drive city-to-city and use a bus in town, like any civilized person would.) But, I think the point here is the break-even point is MUCH lower than in my case. There's also a third story I think is a little outlandish because we're comparing frightfully expensive cars with Teslas. This is where we compare the 2022 Rolls Boat Tail at $28M to the standard Model 3 after all the price cuts Elon's been talking about lately. If you can afford a Rolls Boat Tail, you don't care about how much gas (or electrons) cost. You would probably NEVER be seen in a standard Model 3. I think you would have to get a plaid and then gold plate every surface. Or maybe palladium plate every surface because someone told you gold was passé.
- frumper 4y ago
  It's silly to compare the cost of operation of two cars that aren't in competition to be purchased by the same person. You should compare the kinds of cars you'd be likely to buy against each other, or the kinds of cars your brother is likely to buy against each other. A model 3/Y purchase price is pretty much at the average new car price, so a person looking for a new sedan or mid sized SUV would look a step further and look at things like total cost of operation.
  - retrocryptid 4y ago
    Again. My original comment was in response to someone who asserted it was ALWAYS less expensive to operate an EV than to operate an ICE vehicle. Which is all manner of wrong. I gave a specific example involving an expensive EV my brother bought and a remarkably inexpensive used ICE vehicle I purchased. I did not say that every comparison of EVs with ICEs would exhibit the same relative costs. I was talking about a SPECIFIC example. We're I logician I might refer to this as an existential: there exists one. I am not arguing it is a universal. But if someone says "all EVs are less expensive to operate than all ICEs," then to disprove that statement you only have to find a single counter-example, which I did. Finding a single counter-example to the universal does not imply the obverse of the universal. In other words, saying "hey, I bought a cheap used ICE vehicle and it is considerably less expensive to operate than my brother's EV" does not mean I am arguing "All ICE vehicles are cheaper to operate than all EVs." I am happy that you like the model 3/Y and wish you many years of happy driving. <snark>At least until you have to sell your children to afford the replacement battery.</snark>
    - frumper 4y ago
      > For city driving, I charge at home for around 1/3 the cost per mile compared to filling a comparable ICE vehicle with a poisonous combustible liquid. That's all the person you originally replied to says about cost. You emphasize ALWAYS and use the keyword operate, but you've self inserted the extreme always condition and ignore what operate means.
    - vel0city 4y ago
vel0city 4y ago
> Here with PG&E they charge 33c/kWh after midnight, or 56c/kWh during peak hours. Sounds like a good reason to avoid areas served by PG&E.

by jjav 4y ago

retrocryptid 4y ago

Even if electricity was free, it would take 10s (if not 100s) of thousands of miles to make up for the initial price difference. But the future isn't written yet. It's entirely possible that gasoline will be $10/gallon next year and electricity may be free. In which case, it will only take 175,000 miles to break even. Also, I think we're conflating two stories here. The first is about the SPECIFIC example of me and my brother. He bought an expensive car, I bought an inexpensive car. It's going to be at least another 300k miles before my gas expenses meet the price difference. At that point he can certainly start teasing me about how expensive my car is to operate. But I will still be able to call him a reactionary imperialist whose only interest is cheating the proletariat out of their right to travel in the HOV lane unimpeded by bourgeois singletons. The second story is the general case, where someone who needs a car wants to compare the total cost of ownership of a Tesla vs. some other random non-EV. Let's also make the other random non-EV reasonably nice because if you're bougie enough to consider a Tesla, you would NEVER be seen in a Hyundai Accent. Bing tells me the MSRP on a 2023 Camry is $27k which is DANG CLOSE to a current Tesla after you throw in government credit. But the Camry can go 500 miles on a tank of gas and if you get the long range Tesla, the price starts going up. So there is a bit of a question here about how you might use your car (I mostly only drive city-to-city and use a bus in town, like any civilized person would.) But, I think the point here is the break-even point is MUCH lower than in my case. There's also a third story I think is a little outlandish because we're comparing frightfully expensive cars with Teslas. This is where we compare the 2022 Rolls Boat Tail at $28M to the standard Model 3 after all the price cuts Elon's been talking about lately. If you can afford a Rolls Boat Tail, you don't care about how much gas (or electrons) cost. You would probably NEVER be seen in a standard Model 3. I think you would have to get a plaid and then gold plate every surface. Or maybe palladium plate every surface because someone told you gold was passé.

frumper 4y ago
It's silly to compare the cost of operation of two cars that aren't in competition to be purchased by the same person. You should compare the kinds of cars you'd be likely to buy against each other, or the kinds of cars your brother is likely to buy against each other. A model 3/Y purchase price is pretty much at the average new car price, so a person looking for a new sedan or mid sized SUV would look a step further and look at things like total cost of operation.
- retrocryptid 4y ago
  Again. My original comment was in response to someone who asserted it was ALWAYS less expensive to operate an EV than to operate an ICE vehicle. Which is all manner of wrong. I gave a specific example involving an expensive EV my brother bought and a remarkably inexpensive used ICE vehicle I purchased. I did not say that every comparison of EVs with ICEs would exhibit the same relative costs. I was talking about a SPECIFIC example. We're I logician I might refer to this as an existential: there exists one. I am not arguing it is a universal. But if someone says "all EVs are less expensive to operate than all ICEs," then to disprove that statement you only have to find a single counter-example, which I did. Finding a single counter-example to the universal does not imply the obverse of the universal. In other words, saying "hey, I bought a cheap used ICE vehicle and it is considerably less expensive to operate than my brother's EV" does not mean I am arguing "All ICE vehicles are cheaper to operate than all EVs." I am happy that you like the model 3/Y and wish you many years of happy driving. <snark>At least until you have to sell your children to afford the replacement battery.</snark>
  - frumper 4y ago
    > For city driving, I charge at home for around 1/3 the cost per mile compared to filling a comparable ICE vehicle with a poisonous combustible liquid. That's all the person you originally replied to says about cost. You emphasize ALWAYS and use the keyword operate, but you've self inserted the extreme always condition and ignore what operate means.
  - vel0city 4y ago

vel0city 4y ago

> Here with PG&E they charge 33c/kWh after midnight, or 56c/kWh during peak hours. Sounds like a good reason to avoid areas served by PG&E.