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Ah yes, the classic corporate footgun. I am sure power users who are alienated will most definitely stay quiet and not complain to their peers, damaging the rep

Ah yes, the classic corporate footgun. I am sure power users who are alienated will most definitely stay quiet and not complain to their peers, damaging the reputation of a once reliable tool. This has never happened before after all. :')

p-e-w 3y ago
There is no meaningful competition, so reputation doesn't matter. Those people already left Google to use DDG. Where are they going to go now? Some random individual's hobby search engine with a crappy index? Some shady startup's Bing wrapper that promotes a crypto scam? There is no real competition in search (and in social media, and in email, and in operating systems, and in browsers, ...). Companies can do whatever the fuck they want, and the only thing users can do is complain in vain.
- mb7733 3y ago
  > Those people already left Google to use DDG. Where are they going to go now? Back to Google?
  - p1esk 3y ago
    Kagi, Brave, you.com, Phind.
    - _a9 3y ago
      Been using Brave search since they released it. I used to fallback to Google but I've stopped using it recently, it has turned to absoulte crap always returning random spam or nothing at all unless I'm searching for something basic. Been falling back to Phind on dev stuff now if Brave doesnt have anything. Phind is something I would absolutely pay for when the time comes.
      - nicce 3y ago
        Phind is still a bit slow. By the time it finishes writing, I have found the solution with other search engine.
- midoridensha 3y ago
  >There is no real competition in search (and in social media, and in email, and in operating systems, and in browsers, ...). This is factually untrue. There's plenty of competition in social media and OSes, and Firefox still exists. For social media, there's Diaspora (yeah, I know, no one uses it), and for OSes you've got to be kidding: there's dozens of Linux distros out there or you can easily roll your own with various tools that are easily found. And despite its poor marketshare, Firefox still works quite well for me on Linux. You have a valid complaint about search and email though, but for email it's understandable: the underlying protocol is broken beyond repair because its designers never anticipated spam so the current state is really unavoidable. Luckily, people have found alternatives to email and just don't use it much any more.
  - p-e-w 3y ago
    Firefox is near the lowest market share in its history, and declining further. Linux accounts for somewhere between 0.5% and 3% of the desktop OS market, depending on who you ask. Mastodon, Diaspora, Lemmy etc. are niche products used by far fewer than 1% of people. That's not competition. That's "some geeks built some stuff and a couple of people use it occasionally". If there were just two car manufacturers, and one of them had 98% market share and the other 2%, I doubt you'd call that market "competitive". Competition doesn't simply mean "other stuff exists".
    - midoridensha 3y ago
      >Firefox is near the lowest market share in its history, and declining further. Yes, but for now, it works just fine. Much better than Chrome IMO in fact. As long as Mozilla gets enough funding to continue development, this shouldn't change. >Linux accounts for somewhere between 0.5% and 3% of the desktop OS market, depending on who you ask. Why does this matter? It works fine for countless people and companies. I'm using it at work right now, and have been using it exclusively at work for many years. Marketshare is meaningless with Linux anyway because almost no one pays for it, so of course it doesn't show up in marketshare surveys. >Mastodon, Diaspora, Lemmy etc. are niche products used by far fewer than 1% of people. But they exist and work. If people don't like Facebook et al, they're free to switch, and they have no right to complain. >Competition doesn't simply mean "other stuff exists". Yes, it really does. Those things are all viable alternatives. That's the definition of competition.
- plaguepilled 3y ago
  >There is no meaningful competition, so reputation doesn't matter. >Those people already left Google to use DDG. Where are they going to go now? Some random individual's hobby search engine with a crappy index? >Companies can do whatever the fuck they want, and the only thing users can do is complain in vain. Why so dramatic? It isn't really that big a deal if DDG starts to suck. I use 3 or 4 different engines myself ATM just to see what's going on, DDG being one of them. To say DDG can do whatever they want is only true on the macro, in the short term. It is true me saying 'please don't' will not stop them from doing this right now, and will not affect their bottom line right now. But this news is going to stop me recommending DDG to tech peers, and to change the default on my family's computers. That is STILL a drop in the pond, assuming I am the only one who is going to take this course of action. However, I am very confident that I will not be the only one to make such a switch. Now regarding the idea that DDG is the only good modern search, I refer you to Searx, Librex, Kagi, and Startpage. Now regarding your comment about "random individuals hobby search engine with a crappy index", that would be true if I wasn't satisfied with the indexes of the ones I recommend. I am satisfied with them, so that's not an issue. Unless you don't like hobby projects, in which case that's weird but you do you. With regards to the "shady startup that wraps bing" point, Startpage is a Google wrapper but I assume the real issue is the shadiness. Which, sure, start page is not a perfect track record, but its good enough. To close, I really don't think tech doomerism is productive. There are alternatives available. Making excuses to not try them is just lazy, not "realistic".
- rippercushions 3y ago
  As the top thread in this thread testifies, a lot of people including me moved from DDG to Kagi.
- paganel 3y ago
  > There is no real competition in search Related, and after reading some of the comments in this thread talking about knowledge and knowledge workers, but maybe this would be the perfect time to bring back ontologies and OWL/RDF?
- phpisthebest 3y ago
  I am not aware of any that stopped using google search completely in favor of DDG, For me DDG was better results, as Google has tried to read my mind and be "smart" about what i am "really" looking for instead of just giving me the results for the words I put in the box. I most often encounter this when looking for technical solutions to a technical problem. Google tends to be better for search results on non-technical items, current events, political topics etc DDG has made their search less useful, is it less useful than google's trash when it comes to technical search results time will tell
mike_d 3y ago
DDG does not have a search engine, they have a frontend UI to Bing. Search API pricing from Microsoft is going up, so they either have to cut the complexity of queries or just not be in business.
- plaguepilled 3y ago
  This is an interesting detail - I was not aware Microsoft's pricing increased. That said, would this really increase complexity substantially? And as a nitpicky aside, if this was done in response to Microsoft's cuts, I should really have found out about this from DDG themselves, rather than a github repo commit. Though it does change the intent quite a bit.
  - mike_d 3y ago
    Bing buckets queries into pricing tiers based on complexity. Why on earth would DDG have any obligation or interest in telling you about their supplier pricing? You found out something that has little to no material impact on you from a post on a nerd site.
    - plaguepilled 3y ago
      >Why on earth would DDG have any obligation or interest in telling you about their supplier pricing? Because I used the feature. >You found out something that has little to no material impact on you from a post on a nerd site. It has an impact on me, because I used the feature.
    - doubtfulcan 3y ago
      Transparency would be in a self-proclaimed privacy oriented businesses interest. Hiding changes and being found out is really bad PR

p-e-w 3y ago

There is no meaningful competition, so reputation doesn't matter. Those people already left Google to use DDG. Where are they going to go now? Some random individual's hobby search engine with a crappy index? Some shady startup's Bing wrapper that promotes a crypto scam? There is no real competition in search (and in social media, and in email, and in operating systems, and in browsers, ...). Companies can do whatever the fuck they want, and the only thing users can do is complain in vain.

mb7733 3y ago
> Those people already left Google to use DDG. Where are they going to go now? Back to Google?
- p1esk 3y ago
  Kagi, Brave, you.com, Phind.
  - _a9 3y ago
    Been using Brave search since they released it. I used to fallback to Google but I've stopped using it recently, it has turned to absoulte crap always returning random spam or nothing at all unless I'm searching for something basic. Been falling back to Phind on dev stuff now if Brave doesnt have anything. Phind is something I would absolutely pay for when the time comes.
    - nicce 3y ago
      Phind is still a bit slow. By the time it finishes writing, I have found the solution with other search engine.
midoridensha 3y ago
>There is no real competition in search (and in social media, and in email, and in operating systems, and in browsers, ...). This is factually untrue. There's plenty of competition in social media and OSes, and Firefox still exists. For social media, there's Diaspora (yeah, I know, no one uses it), and for OSes you've got to be kidding: there's dozens of Linux distros out there or you can easily roll your own with various tools that are easily found. And despite its poor marketshare, Firefox still works quite well for me on Linux. You have a valid complaint about search and email though, but for email it's understandable: the underlying protocol is broken beyond repair because its designers never anticipated spam so the current state is really unavoidable. Luckily, people have found alternatives to email and just don't use it much any more.
- p-e-w 3y ago
  Firefox is near the lowest market share in its history, and declining further. Linux accounts for somewhere between 0.5% and 3% of the desktop OS market, depending on who you ask. Mastodon, Diaspora, Lemmy etc. are niche products used by far fewer than 1% of people. That's not competition. That's "some geeks built some stuff and a couple of people use it occasionally". If there were just two car manufacturers, and one of them had 98% market share and the other 2%, I doubt you'd call that market "competitive". Competition doesn't simply mean "other stuff exists".
  - midoridensha 3y ago
    >Firefox is near the lowest market share in its history, and declining further. Yes, but for now, it works just fine. Much better than Chrome IMO in fact. As long as Mozilla gets enough funding to continue development, this shouldn't change. >Linux accounts for somewhere between 0.5% and 3% of the desktop OS market, depending on who you ask. Why does this matter? It works fine for countless people and companies. I'm using it at work right now, and have been using it exclusively at work for many years. Marketshare is meaningless with Linux anyway because almost no one pays for it, so of course it doesn't show up in marketshare surveys. >Mastodon, Diaspora, Lemmy etc. are niche products used by far fewer than 1% of people. But they exist and work. If people don't like Facebook et al, they're free to switch, and they have no right to complain. >Competition doesn't simply mean "other stuff exists". Yes, it really does. Those things are all viable alternatives. That's the definition of competition.
plaguepilled 3y ago
>There is no meaningful competition, so reputation doesn't matter. >Those people already left Google to use DDG. Where are they going to go now? Some random individual's hobby search engine with a crappy index? >Companies can do whatever the fuck they want, and the only thing users can do is complain in vain. Why so dramatic? It isn't really that big a deal if DDG starts to suck. I use 3 or 4 different engines myself ATM just to see what's going on, DDG being one of them. To say DDG can do whatever they want is only true on the macro, in the short term. It is true me saying 'please don't' will not stop them from doing this right now, and will not affect their bottom line right now. But this news is going to stop me recommending DDG to tech peers, and to change the default on my family's computers. That is STILL a drop in the pond, assuming I am the only one who is going to take this course of action. However, I am very confident that I will not be the only one to make such a switch. Now regarding the idea that DDG is the only good modern search, I refer you to Searx, Librex, Kagi, and Startpage. Now regarding your comment about "random individuals hobby search engine with a crappy index", that would be true if I wasn't satisfied with the indexes of the ones I recommend. I am satisfied with them, so that's not an issue. Unless you don't like hobby projects, in which case that's weird but you do you. With regards to the "shady startup that wraps bing" point, Startpage is a Google wrapper but I assume the real issue is the shadiness. Which, sure, start page is not a perfect track record, but its good enough. To close, I really don't think tech doomerism is productive. There are alternatives available. Making excuses to not try them is just lazy, not "realistic".
rippercushions 3y ago
As the top thread in this thread testifies, a lot of people including me moved from DDG to Kagi.
paganel 3y ago
> There is no real competition in search Related, and after reading some of the comments in this thread talking about knowledge and knowledge workers, but maybe this would be the perfect time to bring back ontologies and OWL/RDF?
phpisthebest 3y ago
I am not aware of any that stopped using google search completely in favor of DDG, For me DDG was better results, as Google has tried to read my mind and be "smart" about what i am "really" looking for instead of just giving me the results for the words I put in the box. I most often encounter this when looking for technical solutions to a technical problem. Google tends to be better for search results on non-technical items, current events, political topics etc DDG has made their search less useful, is it less useful than google's trash when it comes to technical search results time will tell

mike_d 3y ago

DDG does not have a search engine, they have a frontend UI to Bing. Search API pricing from Microsoft is going up, so they either have to cut the complexity of queries or just not be in business.

plaguepilled 3y ago
This is an interesting detail - I was not aware Microsoft's pricing increased. That said, would this really increase complexity substantially? And as a nitpicky aside, if this was done in response to Microsoft's cuts, I should really have found out about this from DDG themselves, rather than a github repo commit. Though it does change the intent quite a bit.
- mike_d 3y ago
  Bing buckets queries into pricing tiers based on complexity. Why on earth would DDG have any obligation or interest in telling you about their supplier pricing? You found out something that has little to no material impact on you from a post on a nerd site.
  - plaguepilled 3y ago
    >Why on earth would DDG have any obligation or interest in telling you about their supplier pricing? Because I used the feature. >You found out something that has little to no material impact on you from a post on a nerd site. It has an impact on me, because I used the feature.
  - doubtfulcan 3y ago
    Transparency would be in a self-proclaimed privacy oriented businesses interest. Hiding changes and being found out is really bad PR