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My brother's new Tesla cost $76,000 more than my used Fiat 500. The fiat gets something like 26mpg in the city and 34 on the highway. If gas is $5/gal, then i

My brother's new Tesla cost $76,000 more than my used Fiat 500. The fiat gets something like 26mpg in the city and 34 on the highway. If gas is $5/gal, then it's going to be 400,000 miles or so before the cost of gas equals the $76,000 price differential. (It occurs to me I didn't even factor in the cost of the electricity to pay for miles his Tesla drives.) I'm also driving a car with about half to one fourth the environmental impact to construct (if you think the impact is proportional to the construction cost) I'm about 60,000 miles into owning the car and aside from typical maintenance and a fuel recirc solenoid that had to be replaced, it's not been that expensive to operate. It has the benefit that no one seems to want to steal it, so my anti-theft package is just to park it next to a Mercedes or BMW. My battery has never spontaneously ignited and it doesn't cost $24k to replace every xxx-thousand miles. But it's not all roses, I don't get to ride in the HOV lane, but that's fine. I'm a socialist and prefer the HOV lane be used for HOVs which are CONSIDERABLY more eco-friendly than ANY single-occupant electric or hybrid. My Fiat is pretty peppy for an ICE vehicle, but yes, not nearly as good at low end torque as EVs. But it's much better than the '71 VW bug I learned to drive on. But I think my point is... the upfront cost and TCO differentials between ICE and EVs make it difficult to support the argument "EVs are cheaper than ICEs" They will be, someday. But that day is not now and that vehicle is not a Tesla.

vel0city 4y ago
Your brother didn't need to spend >$76,000 more than you did on a Tesla. I see used Tesla's in my area for sale <$30k.
- retrocryptid 4y ago
  Except that the Tesla he wanted at the time he wanted to purchase it was $76,000 more than my Fiat. The existence of $30k Teslas at other points in spacetime do not change that fact. If we rework the example with a $30k Tesla, that's still $26k more than my used car, which brings the break-even point down to about 150,000 miles (if you assume electricity going into the EV is without cost) or somewhere around 225,000 miles if you go with the previous poster's assumption that price per mile is one third of an ICE engine. I (absolutely) got a cranking deal on my Fiat. But if you compare a new Tesla at $35,000 with a new Camry, it (the Tesla) is starting to look more compelling, but as long as ICE vehicles have functionality left in them, it's probably more environmentally conscious and economically sound to drive them. That being said... if you want a Tesla, get a Tesla. But if your objective is to drive around cheaply, I don't think it's the cheapest option.
  - vel0city 4y ago
    But if you're comparing the break even costs you should really be comparing a cheap used version of the car instead of a high end version as you're comparing it to a ludicrously cheap counterexample. His $80k Tesla was $2M cheaper than a Bugatti Veyron. Clearly Tesla's are way cheaper than gas cars. I don't understand how anyone can afford the millions of dollars gas cars cost. Or maybe $4k cars that aren't absolutely falling apart and Veyrons aren't the most useful yardsticks of car pricing. I definitely understand the $4k used unicorn, I drove one for years. But IME the vast majority of $4k cars are priced that low for a reason. I can find a used Bolt for ~$20k pretty easy. Most decent used gas cars are probably going to be around $10-14k. Let's say $10k price difference. At $3.50/gal, 25mpg, 12,000mi/yr, that's $1,680 in gas. At 4mi/kWh, 11¢/kWh, same mileage that's $330. $1,350/yr cheaper, so from energy cost differences that's a seven and a half year break even on 10k difference. If your ICE was $14k, that's only four and a half years. And that Bolt probably just got a brand new battery from the recall, meaning it'll probably last at least a decade (probably more) without any major maintenance issues. Meanwhile that $10k ICE probably needs a new timing belt soon, probably has some aging motor mounts, and maybe it isn't always shifting into third gear very well. I'm definitely not telling you to throw away your $4k unicorn. It's good you're getting a lot of life in it. I'm just suggesting that acting like EVs cost $80k and ICE cars cost $4k is stretching those markets to the point where it's pretty unrealistic to most buyers. Also, that point about batteries spontaneously igniting, I've seen neighbors houses burn down from ICE cars spontaneously igniting. I see gas cars burning on the highways pretty regularly. I've had cars have recalls telling me to park outside. Gas cars catch on fire all the damn time.
    - jjav 4y ago
      > His $80k Tesla was $2M cheaper than a Bugatti Veyron. Clearly Tesla's are way cheaper than gas cars. Silly comparisons are fun I suppose, but for someone who is poor ultimately the only comparison that matters is how much will it cost this year. The cheapest non-salvage Tesla I see on craigslist right now is 30K. I also see tons of 2K-4K Honda/Toyota/Mazda cars that will give someone plenty of low-cost miles for years to come. It is not realistic to think a poor person will buy a 30K car on the hope that in a few decades the operating costs will break even and eventually save them money. > At 4mi/kWh, 11¢/kWh Here with PG&E they charge 33c/kWh after midnight, or 56c/kWh during peak hours.
HopenHeyHi 4y ago
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- retrocryptid 4y ago
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  - HopenHeyHi 4y ago
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    - dang 4y ago
      We've banned this account for posting flamewar comments. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - dang 4y ago
    Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar, regardless of what another account is doing. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

vel0city 4y ago

Your brother didn't need to spend >$76,000 more than you did on a Tesla. I see used Tesla's in my area for sale <$30k.

retrocryptid 4y ago
Except that the Tesla he wanted at the time he wanted to purchase it was $76,000 more than my Fiat. The existence of $30k Teslas at other points in spacetime do not change that fact. If we rework the example with a $30k Tesla, that's still $26k more than my used car, which brings the break-even point down to about 150,000 miles (if you assume electricity going into the EV is without cost) or somewhere around 225,000 miles if you go with the previous poster's assumption that price per mile is one third of an ICE engine. I (absolutely) got a cranking deal on my Fiat. But if you compare a new Tesla at $35,000 with a new Camry, it (the Tesla) is starting to look more compelling, but as long as ICE vehicles have functionality left in them, it's probably more environmentally conscious and economically sound to drive them. That being said... if you want a Tesla, get a Tesla. But if your objective is to drive around cheaply, I don't think it's the cheapest option.
- vel0city 4y ago
  But if you're comparing the break even costs you should really be comparing a cheap used version of the car instead of a high end version as you're comparing it to a ludicrously cheap counterexample. His $80k Tesla was $2M cheaper than a Bugatti Veyron. Clearly Tesla's are way cheaper than gas cars. I don't understand how anyone can afford the millions of dollars gas cars cost. Or maybe $4k cars that aren't absolutely falling apart and Veyrons aren't the most useful yardsticks of car pricing. I definitely understand the $4k used unicorn, I drove one for years. But IME the vast majority of $4k cars are priced that low for a reason. I can find a used Bolt for ~$20k pretty easy. Most decent used gas cars are probably going to be around $10-14k. Let's say $10k price difference. At $3.50/gal, 25mpg, 12,000mi/yr, that's $1,680 in gas. At 4mi/kWh, 11¢/kWh, same mileage that's $330. $1,350/yr cheaper, so from energy cost differences that's a seven and a half year break even on 10k difference. If your ICE was $14k, that's only four and a half years. And that Bolt probably just got a brand new battery from the recall, meaning it'll probably last at least a decade (probably more) without any major maintenance issues. Meanwhile that $10k ICE probably needs a new timing belt soon, probably has some aging motor mounts, and maybe it isn't always shifting into third gear very well. I'm definitely not telling you to throw away your $4k unicorn. It's good you're getting a lot of life in it. I'm just suggesting that acting like EVs cost $80k and ICE cars cost $4k is stretching those markets to the point where it's pretty unrealistic to most buyers. Also, that point about batteries spontaneously igniting, I've seen neighbors houses burn down from ICE cars spontaneously igniting. I see gas cars burning on the highways pretty regularly. I've had cars have recalls telling me to park outside. Gas cars catch on fire all the damn time.
  - jjav 4y ago
    > His $80k Tesla was $2M cheaper than a Bugatti Veyron. Clearly Tesla's are way cheaper than gas cars. Silly comparisons are fun I suppose, but for someone who is poor ultimately the only comparison that matters is how much will it cost this year. The cheapest non-salvage Tesla I see on craigslist right now is 30K. I also see tons of 2K-4K Honda/Toyota/Mazda cars that will give someone plenty of low-cost miles for years to come. It is not realistic to think a poor person will buy a 30K car on the hope that in a few decades the operating costs will break even and eventually save them money. > At 4mi/kWh, 11¢/kWh Here with PG&E they charge 33c/kWh after midnight, or 56c/kWh during peak hours.

HopenHeyHi 4y ago

[flagged]

retrocryptid 4y ago
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- HopenHeyHi 4y ago
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  - dang 4y ago
    We've banned this account for posting flamewar comments. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- dang 4y ago
  Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar, regardless of what another account is doing. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html