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I have to imagine there are parallel benefits as well. Just as a Java developer will become a better Java developer by learning programming languages with other

I have to imagine there are parallel benefits as well. Just as a Java developer will become a better Java developer by learning programming languages with other paradigms, I have to believe knowing multiple spoken languages has tangible benefits outside of understanding the language itself.

qsort 4y ago
A Java developer becomes a better Java developer if they learn alternative concepts that Java doesn't empasize as much. Learning Lisp, Haskell or C is going to be useful, for example. But a Java developer won't become a better Java developer if they learn C#, which is basically Java with different capitalization conventions. I guess something like that happens for natural languages. You get those benefits if you actively learn new concepts. The difference of course is that you are unlikely to have done that purely by being bilingual. Many bilingual people just picked up 2+ languages as they were growing up.
- jimsimmons 4y ago
  A confounder in the above study could be that they counted pairs like European languages and English as two different languages when in reality they are very similar. knowing english and german is not knowing two full languages imho. you’ll get more exposure to german culture but it’s not the same as knowing English and a slavic or asian language.
- courgette 4y ago
  I speak French, English and Spanish. In that order. Some concept exist in one and not the other. Addressing someone in a formal way. Addressing a group a once ( “y’all” ) But I know bits and pieces of German, Latin and Polish… those have lots of grammatical differences that force you to think about the structure of your sentence. Recognize a datif from a ablatif. That type of things. It actually help with writing correct French. But I’m not sure it would make me “better” like learning a functional language or ASM made me a “better” developer.
slibhb 4y ago
I'm not so sure. Natural languages are not very much like programming languages. When you speak a language fluently you're able to speak and understand without thinking about it. Children can be fluent with no formal training in grammar. Meanwhile, for me at least, programming is the opposite: I have to learn all the rules on a formal level and my mind can't wander while I'm programming at all. I think the benefits of knowing more natural languages are pretty clear: the ability to speak to and understand more people. Plus the art, entertainment, and other cultural productions you get access to.
courgette 4y ago
French being my first language, I can says the same things with fancier words in english. But sometime I will use English turn of sentences in French and it sounds weird ( just did it a l’envers here, pretty sure “turn of sentence” does not exists in English ) I’m ok at Spanish too. My main motivation is to be able to talk to random peoples when traveling. English came de facto because of the internet and US soft power. Not sure it makes me better at writing or speaking.
- rib3ye 4y ago
  You don’t think English propagation had anything to do with British colonialism?
  - tick_tock_tick 4y ago
    I mean them colonizing the USA.....
    - thaumasiotes 4y ago
      The presence of English in India is pretty clearly due to the efforts of the British, not the Americans. Same thing in Australia. Presence of English in France and Germany might be more due to Americans.
      - courgette 4y ago
        In France I would blame post ww2 soft power. The old cliché about French gents not speaking English is irrelevant for anybody under 40yo. It’s interesting to see French word in English from the William the conqueror period, too. ( like “phrase” from above or the tired example “sheep” vs “mutton” )
- klodolph 4y ago
  “Turn of phrase” is an English idiom, but it sounds like it does not mean the same thing.
ajmurmann 4y ago
One thing bilingualism has allowed me to do is differentiate better between the words and the things the words represent. This is mostly driven by words from different languages that translate to each other, not sharing all meanings of words. Of course I cannot think of an example right now that usefully illustrates how this leads to insights. It has explicitly come up in some philosophical discussions with friends and family who were going down a path intellectually that was driven more by the language than what it represents. IMO, your programming language comparison is somewhat similar in that even knowing multiple, similar languages allows you to differentiate between the syntax and the concepts expressed by the syntax. E.g. different ways of constructing classes and objects in different languages will make you understand the core of OOP better, similarly to different ways to loop, etc.

qsort 4y ago

A Java developer becomes a better Java developer if they learn alternative concepts that Java doesn't empasize as much. Learning Lisp, Haskell or C is going to be useful, for example. But a Java developer won't become a better Java developer if they learn C#, which is basically Java with different capitalization conventions. I guess something like that happens for natural languages. You get those benefits if you actively learn new concepts. The difference of course is that you are unlikely to have done that purely by being bilingual. Many bilingual people just picked up 2+ languages as they were growing up.

jimsimmons 4y ago
A confounder in the above study could be that they counted pairs like European languages and English as two different languages when in reality they are very similar. knowing english and german is not knowing two full languages imho. you’ll get more exposure to german culture but it’s not the same as knowing English and a slavic or asian language.
courgette 4y ago
I speak French, English and Spanish. In that order. Some concept exist in one and not the other. Addressing someone in a formal way. Addressing a group a once ( “y’all” ) But I know bits and pieces of German, Latin and Polish… those have lots of grammatical differences that force you to think about the structure of your sentence. Recognize a datif from a ablatif. That type of things. It actually help with writing correct French. But I’m not sure it would make me “better” like learning a functional language or ASM made me a “better” developer.

slibhb 4y ago

I'm not so sure. Natural languages are not very much like programming languages. When you speak a language fluently you're able to speak and understand without thinking about it. Children can be fluent with no formal training in grammar. Meanwhile, for me at least, programming is the opposite: I have to learn all the rules on a formal level and my mind can't wander while I'm programming at all. I think the benefits of knowing more natural languages are pretty clear: the ability to speak to and understand more people. Plus the art, entertainment, and other cultural productions you get access to.

courgette 4y ago

French being my first language, I can says the same things with fancier words in english. But sometime I will use English turn of sentences in French and it sounds weird ( just did it a l’envers here, pretty sure “turn of sentence” does not exists in English ) I’m ok at Spanish too. My main motivation is to be able to talk to random peoples when traveling. English came de facto because of the internet and US soft power. Not sure it makes me better at writing or speaking.

rib3ye 4y ago
You don’t think English propagation had anything to do with British colonialism?
- tick_tock_tick 4y ago
  I mean them colonizing the USA.....
  - thaumasiotes 4y ago
    The presence of English in India is pretty clearly due to the efforts of the British, not the Americans. Same thing in Australia. Presence of English in France and Germany might be more due to Americans.
    - courgette 4y ago
      In France I would blame post ww2 soft power. The old cliché about French gents not speaking English is irrelevant for anybody under 40yo. It’s interesting to see French word in English from the William the conqueror period, too. ( like “phrase” from above or the tired example “sheep” vs “mutton” )
klodolph 4y ago
“Turn of phrase” is an English idiom, but it sounds like it does not mean the same thing.

ajmurmann 4y ago

One thing bilingualism has allowed me to do is differentiate better between the words and the things the words represent. This is mostly driven by words from different languages that translate to each other, not sharing all meanings of words. Of course I cannot think of an example right now that usefully illustrates how this leads to insights. It has explicitly come up in some philosophical discussions with friends and family who were going down a path intellectually that was driven more by the language than what it represents. IMO, your programming language comparison is somewhat similar in that even knowing multiple, similar languages allows you to differentiate between the syntax and the concepts expressed by the syntax. E.g. different ways of constructing classes and objects in different languages will make you understand the core of OOP better, similarly to different ways to loop, etc.