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Dedicated GPUs are a chip about the same size as a CPU + a big board with power delivery, memory modules, cooling etc. CPUs would be the same size if they had a

Dedicated GPUs are a chip about the same size as a CPU + a big board with power delivery, memory modules, cooling etc. CPUs would be the same size if they had all that stuff on their own discrete board too. Pairing a 4090 + a CPU on the same chip/side by side would be a stretch, but it has nothing to do with physical size - more the motherboard needing to handle power delivery, and the separate memory not being fast enough. Something like a 3060 is probably more reasonable. This already exists too - the PS5 and Xbox Series X/S both use APUs with much more powerful GPUs than are available as standalone purchases.

ilyt 4y ago
> Dedicated GPUs are a chip about the same size as a CPU + a big board with power delivery, memory modules, cooling etc. 4090 have die area of ~600mm2 Ryzen 7 have 71mm2 CPU die and 122mm2 IO die It's not even fucking comparable > CPUs would be the same size if they had all that stuff on their own discrete board too Oh, oh, I know, we can call the board that has all the power and IO CPU needs a "motherboard" cos it cradles the CPU in its hold (socket). Oh, wait, that's exactly how it is.
- AnthonyMouse 4y ago
  That's because you're comparing one of the biggest GPUs to a midrange CPU. Epyc 9654 has 12xCCD, which is bigger than the 4090. Radeon RX 6400 has a 107mm2 die, which is smaller than the Ryzen IO die.
  - ilyt 4y ago
    That's server CPU. 7950X3D isn't that much bigger,only one extra CCD > Epyc 9654 has 12xCCD That's $7k CPU you're comparing to $1600 GPU
    - AnthonyMouse 4y ago
      I named a big one. It's expensive. The 9354P is $2,730 and still has 8 CCD. That's >60% more than the 4090, but it's also >60% bigger, because Epyc has a ~400mm2 I/O die on top of the CCDs.
  - p1necone 4y ago
    Ryzen 7 is the high end of the gaming market in AMDs offerings. Buying an EPYC would give you worse performance for more cost and higher power budget (games still generally benefit more from a modest core count + high single core speed rather than the high core count + modest single core speed found in most high end server/workstation chips).
    - AnthonyMouse 4y ago
      Ryzen 7 is the midrange processor. Ryzen 9 has a higher boost clock but also has two CCD for not much more money. The high end is Threadripper (though there isn't a Zen4 one (yet?)), and that has up to 8 CCD which is still bigger than the 4090. You're comparing a ~$350 CPU to a ~$1600 GPU.
      - p1necone 4y ago
        No, Ryzen 7 is the high end of their regular desktop chips. ThreadRipper is a different market segment altogether, and with all the ones they've released so far have been worse for gaming outside of a few titles that really benefit from the high thread count. Intel and Ryzens consumer chips both follow the same marketing formula: > Celeron/Athlon: ultra low end > Ryzen 3/i3: low end > Ryzen 5/i5: mid range > Ryzen 7/i7: high end > Ryzen 9/i9: I have money coming out of my ears and want a bigger number than everyone else. CPUs in general are cheaper than GPUs - spending the same amount on the CPU as the GPU has almost never been the right move. The fact that you have to move out of the consumer product range and into the workstation stuff to even find CPUs that cost as much as high end consumer GPUs should make that clear - the GPU equivalent in that space would be stuff like Quadros or RTX AXXX, which just like threadrippers and epycs are worse for gaming because they focus on memory and stability rather than raw power.
        AnthonyMouse 4y ago
        The market segment for Threadripper is literally called High-End Desktop (HEDT). The pricing for Ryzen 7 and Ryzen 9 overlap. The Ryzen 9 7900 costs less than the Ryzen 7 7800X3D. And Ryzen 9 has better performance per dollar than Ryzen 7 on threaded workloads. The demarcation for "I have money coming out of my ears and want a bigger number than everyone else" is where dollars start going up faster than performance, which is unambiguously Threadripper/HEDT. But Threadripper actually is significantly faster for the kind AI workload that would otherwise be done on a GPU, or for which a fast iGPU would make sense, because it has traditinally had twice as many memory channels. If Zen 4 Threadripper ends up on Socket SP6, it will have three times as many memory channels as Socket AM5. Zen 4-based Ryzen 3 doesn't exist and there hasn't been a new Zen-based Athlon for desktop since Zen+ three years ago.
- p1necone 4y ago
  4090 was just a specific example, you don't have to drop much before die size is much more reasonable - e.g. 4070 is 295mm2 I'm not really sure what you're arguing so aggressively about - are you saying it's impossible to pair a CPU + a high end GPU on a single board? Because as I mentioned this already exists in the PS5 and XBSX, they could sell this in the PC space if they wanted to.
sliken 4y ago
Grace + Hopper is very similar to a 4090 + CPU. They are each on their own die/chiplet, but share a package. The CPU will of course be ARM not x86-64, but otherwise very similar to what you describe.

ilyt 4y ago

> Dedicated GPUs are a chip about the same size as a CPU + a big board with power delivery, memory modules, cooling etc. 4090 have die area of ~600mm2 Ryzen 7 have 71mm2 CPU die and 122mm2 IO die It's not even fucking comparable > CPUs would be the same size if they had all that stuff on their own discrete board too Oh, oh, I know, we can call the board that has all the power and IO CPU needs a "motherboard" cos it cradles the CPU in its hold (socket). Oh, wait, that's exactly how it is.

AnthonyMouse 4y ago
That's because you're comparing one of the biggest GPUs to a midrange CPU. Epyc 9654 has 12xCCD, which is bigger than the 4090. Radeon RX 6400 has a 107mm2 die, which is smaller than the Ryzen IO die.
- ilyt 4y ago
  That's server CPU. 7950X3D isn't that much bigger,only one extra CCD > Epyc 9654 has 12xCCD That's $7k CPU you're comparing to $1600 GPU
  - AnthonyMouse 4y ago
    I named a big one. It's expensive. The 9354P is $2,730 and still has 8 CCD. That's >60% more than the 4090, but it's also >60% bigger, because Epyc has a ~400mm2 I/O die on top of the CCDs.
- p1necone 4y ago
  Ryzen 7 is the high end of the gaming market in AMDs offerings. Buying an EPYC would give you worse performance for more cost and higher power budget (games still generally benefit more from a modest core count + high single core speed rather than the high core count + modest single core speed found in most high end server/workstation chips).
  - AnthonyMouse 4y ago
    Ryzen 7 is the midrange processor. Ryzen 9 has a higher boost clock but also has two CCD for not much more money. The high end is Threadripper (though there isn't a Zen4 one (yet?)), and that has up to 8 CCD which is still bigger than the 4090. You're comparing a ~$350 CPU to a ~$1600 GPU.
    - p1necone 4y ago
      No, Ryzen 7 is the high end of their regular desktop chips. ThreadRipper is a different market segment altogether, and with all the ones they've released so far have been worse for gaming outside of a few titles that really benefit from the high thread count. Intel and Ryzens consumer chips both follow the same marketing formula: > Celeron/Athlon: ultra low end > Ryzen 3/i3: low end > Ryzen 5/i5: mid range > Ryzen 7/i7: high end > Ryzen 9/i9: I have money coming out of my ears and want a bigger number than everyone else. CPUs in general are cheaper than GPUs - spending the same amount on the CPU as the GPU has almost never been the right move. The fact that you have to move out of the consumer product range and into the workstation stuff to even find CPUs that cost as much as high end consumer GPUs should make that clear - the GPU equivalent in that space would be stuff like Quadros or RTX AXXX, which just like threadrippers and epycs are worse for gaming because they focus on memory and stability rather than raw power.
      - AnthonyMouse 4y ago
        The market segment for Threadripper is literally called High-End Desktop (HEDT). The pricing for Ryzen 7 and Ryzen 9 overlap. The Ryzen 9 7900 costs less than the Ryzen 7 7800X3D. And Ryzen 9 has better performance per dollar than Ryzen 7 on threaded workloads. The demarcation for "I have money coming out of my ears and want a bigger number than everyone else" is where dollars start going up faster than performance, which is unambiguously Threadripper/HEDT. But Threadripper actually is significantly faster for the kind AI workload that would otherwise be done on a GPU, or for which a fast iGPU would make sense, because it has traditinally had twice as many memory channels. If Zen 4 Threadripper ends up on Socket SP6, it will have three times as many memory channels as Socket AM5. Zen 4-based Ryzen 3 doesn't exist and there hasn't been a new Zen-based Athlon for desktop since Zen+ three years ago.
p1necone 4y ago
4090 was just a specific example, you don't have to drop much before die size is much more reasonable - e.g. 4070 is 295mm2 I'm not really sure what you're arguing so aggressively about - are you saying it's impossible to pair a CPU + a high end GPU on a single board? Because as I mentioned this already exists in the PS5 and XBSX, they could sell this in the PC space if they wanted to.

sliken 4y ago

Grace + Hopper is very similar to a 4090 + CPU. They are each on their own die/chiplet, but share a package. The CPU will of course be ARM not x86-64, but otherwise very similar to what you describe.