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Yup. This is one of the reasons I've argued in favor of "slow, at work charging" as the default for EVs. If you put in a bunch of 240V/16A chargers (3.8kW), a

by Syonyk 3y ago

Yup. This is one of the reasons I've argued in favor of "slow, at work charging" as the default for EVs. If you put in a bunch of 240V/16A chargers (3.8kW), as people show up in the 8-9 timeframe, they start charging, and the bulk of the charging happens in the ~10AM-2PM window that's after the morning peak, as solar is ramping up, and before the afternoon cooling/evening peak. You can even restrict the chargers a bit more in the morning if needed until off peak, though I'm not sure this is worth much over just using dumb chargers that are cheap to install. An average 35 miles a day driving (in the US) requires ~10kWh, so you've got a few hours of charging that can swallow an awful lot of power during the time nothing else is using much of it. It's far better than having to deal with evening and overnight charging.

ajsnigrutin 3y ago
But for that you need every parking space in every office building equipped by a charger, and somehow have the grid strong enough to power all that from solar cells which need to be installed somewhere further away, since an average office building does not have enough roof space to charge all those cars. The hours you mentioned are usually spent at work and the cars are parked there (and not at home).
- Syonyk 3y ago
  Who said every parking space? I didn't. Even at the coastal FAANG offices, EVs are still the minority. And not everyone will be charging every day. It's still fine to have a lot of non-charging spots - some people have short commutes and can be perfectly fine charging for 8-9h once a week (at 3.8kW, that's around 100 miles in 8h of charging). My experience from the early to mid teens is that the Leafs fought for charging, and the longer range BEVs charged if they could, and otherwise didn't get in the (damned near literal) fistfights over charging, but if someone showed up early, they'd plug in for the day. If you look at grid demand curves, that "late morning, early afternoon" time spot is the mid-day low for most grids. So there's excess capacity anyway, and if you look at the "duck curve" sort of graphs, there's a ton of solar on the grid then anyway. This is only increasing with time. So we may as well make decent use of it. You could also have some lower power, 1440W charger slots (15A @ 120V) for those who don't need much power - it'll still make up an average day's driving in 8h of charging, but since it's literally the same wiring cost and such to run 120V as 240V, I'm not sure you gain much with it, and it's now perfectly valid for chargers to coordinate regarding total circuit demand anyway.
  - lucb1e 3y ago
    > Who said every parking space? I didn't. Even at the coastal FAANG offices, EVs are still the minority. Might just be me, but I read any comment talking about an ideal future scenario for charging vehicles (if not otherwise qualified) as being for the ideal world where the 99% switched to electric vehicles. If you're talking about planning for the situation that we have today... that doesn't seem too useful and would be outdated in two-odd years.
    - ajsnigrutin 3y ago
      It's not an "ideal future".... considering how many countries promised that they'll ban gasoline powered cars by 2035 it's something we should already start building (both the solar side and the chargers).
    - matthewdgreen 3y ago
      Compared to all the problems humanity faces (such as not addressing the low-carbon energy transition) it’s hard to be intimidated by a situation where EVs become wildly popular and we have to spend a modest fraction of their cost on wiring charging infrastructure and grid upgrades (a cost we can amortize over decades.)
      - ajsnigrutin 3y ago
        It's not just the cost... it's the material and time needed, all the regulation, permits, etc. Forbidding something is easy... but where the hell will people charge their cars before the cargers are installed? Do you know how long it takes to build a power plant? Do you know how much those things cost? Is there even a company able to build literally billions of charging stations in the next 20 years? 2035 is comming fast... some people have been waiting for a basic build permit for longer than that.
  - ajsnigrutin 3y ago
    > Who said every parking space? I did... if you want to stop selling gas powered cars by 2035 (or whatever the current cutoff date is), you need pretty much every parking space fitted with a charger in ~2040, since electric should overtake gas powered by then. High power, low power,... it doesn't matter if you don't have physical chargers installed pretty much everywhere, and enough solar installed to cover the power usage. This is not "distant future", this is less than 20 years away. Suburbia is simple, because most people have an outlet in their garage, but they can only charge at night (no solar), apartment buildings have basically the same issues as office car parks, but with energy needed at night, and if you really want to utilize solar, you need chargers at office car parks too.

by Syonyk 3y ago

ajsnigrutin 3y ago

But for that you need every parking space in every office building equipped by a charger, and somehow have the grid strong enough to power all that from solar cells which need to be installed somewhere further away, since an average office building does not have enough roof space to charge all those cars. The hours you mentioned are usually spent at work and the cars are parked there (and not at home).

Syonyk 3y ago
Who said every parking space? I didn't. Even at the coastal FAANG offices, EVs are still the minority. And not everyone will be charging every day. It's still fine to have a lot of non-charging spots - some people have short commutes and can be perfectly fine charging for 8-9h once a week (at 3.8kW, that's around 100 miles in 8h of charging). My experience from the early to mid teens is that the Leafs fought for charging, and the longer range BEVs charged if they could, and otherwise didn't get in the (damned near literal) fistfights over charging, but if someone showed up early, they'd plug in for the day. If you look at grid demand curves, that "late morning, early afternoon" time spot is the mid-day low for most grids. So there's excess capacity anyway, and if you look at the "duck curve" sort of graphs, there's a ton of solar on the grid then anyway. This is only increasing with time. So we may as well make decent use of it. You could also have some lower power, 1440W charger slots (15A @ 120V) for those who don't need much power - it'll still make up an average day's driving in 8h of charging, but since it's literally the same wiring cost and such to run 120V as 240V, I'm not sure you gain much with it, and it's now perfectly valid for chargers to coordinate regarding total circuit demand anyway.
- lucb1e 3y ago
  > Who said every parking space? I didn't. Even at the coastal FAANG offices, EVs are still the minority. Might just be me, but I read any comment talking about an ideal future scenario for charging vehicles (if not otherwise qualified) as being for the ideal world where the 99% switched to electric vehicles. If you're talking about planning for the situation that we have today... that doesn't seem too useful and would be outdated in two-odd years.
  - ajsnigrutin 3y ago
    It's not an "ideal future".... considering how many countries promised that they'll ban gasoline powered cars by 2035 it's something we should already start building (both the solar side and the chargers).
  - matthewdgreen 3y ago
    Compared to all the problems humanity faces (such as not addressing the low-carbon energy transition) it’s hard to be intimidated by a situation where EVs become wildly popular and we have to spend a modest fraction of their cost on wiring charging infrastructure and grid upgrades (a cost we can amortize over decades.)
    - ajsnigrutin 3y ago
      It's not just the cost... it's the material and time needed, all the regulation, permits, etc. Forbidding something is easy... but where the hell will people charge their cars before the cargers are installed? Do you know how long it takes to build a power plant? Do you know how much those things cost? Is there even a company able to build literally billions of charging stations in the next 20 years? 2035 is comming fast... some people have been waiting for a basic build permit for longer than that.
- ajsnigrutin 3y ago
  > Who said every parking space? I did... if you want to stop selling gas powered cars by 2035 (or whatever the current cutoff date is), you need pretty much every parking space fitted with a charger in ~2040, since electric should overtake gas powered by then. High power, low power,... it doesn't matter if you don't have physical chargers installed pretty much everywhere, and enough solar installed to cover the power usage. This is not "distant future", this is less than 20 years away. Suburbia is simple, because most people have an outlet in their garage, but they can only charge at night (no solar), apartment buildings have basically the same issues as office car parks, but with energy needed at night, and if you really want to utilize solar, you need chargers at office car parks too.