2 ms·

That's promotion, though. It would be promotion if you didn't make it. I've been accused of being a shill for enough things I was enthusiastic about to be 100%

by Kye 4y ago

That's promotion, though. It would be promotion if you didn't make it. I've been accused of being a shill for enough things I was enthusiastic about to be 100% sure of this. And since you did make it, it's hard to argue you don't benefit in some way from sharing it. That's why disclosure is good form.

EGreg 4y ago
I don’t think asking someone a question about their own specific opinion about whether a particular website could help their peers OR NOT, is the same as promotion. For example, earlier today I promoted a service that I built (see my comment history) and clearly disclosed that it’s mine. In fact, sometimes you don’t WANT the person to know whether what you’re asking about is yours, so they can give a more honest assessment without worrying about hurting your feelings. It should not matter, and for some purposes it shoild be disclosed, whether you made it. As for being accused of shilling… sounds like the crowd accusing you was pretty extreme. The definition of a shill from Wikipedia is indeed nefarious: In most uses, shill refers to someone who purposely gives onlookers, participants or "marks" the impression of an enthusiastic customer independent of the seller, marketer or con artist, for whom they are secretly working. The person or group in league with the shill relies on crowd psychology to encourage other onlookers or audience members to do business with the seller or accept the ideas they are promoting. Shills may be employed by salespeople and professional marketing campaigns. Plant and stooge more commonly refer to a person who is secretly in league with another person or outside organization while pretending to be neutral or part of the organization in which they are planted, such as a magician's audience, a political party, or an intelligence organization
- Kye 4y ago
  All you're doing here is turning what looked innocent and well-intentioned into something suspicious. I hope you learn to take feedback better before your app is big enough that handling it poorly does real damage.
  - EGreg 4y ago
    This is Hacker News. It is reasonable to have substantive discussion and correct mistakes. We are deep in a comment thread hardly anyone will see. So I think it’s OK to explain where I am coming from. It was innocent and well-intentioned. You just misunderstood the intention. If people say there is a systemic problem X in high school, and a high schooler confirms most of their friends have problem X, what do you think is more well-intentioned: 1) Promotion: Hey high school student! I built Y! Check it out! Tell all your friends! I think it might help them! Or… 2) Feedback: Hey high school student, do you THINK this COULD help your friends or not: Y My purpose was 2. I sometimes do 1, but here that was not my intent. When I’m promoting something, you know it. Now that you highlighted that I made it, though, it defeats much of the original intent. So now it has turned into a conversation about whether people can have purposes other than promotion. That’s fine. It is somewhat useful for me to get this straightened out. I won’t get an unbiased answer anymore, but I can get them elsewhere when I do case studies and beta testing. bottom line: doing a clinical trial or experiment or beta testing or asking someone’s opinion isn’t always primarily about promotion.
    - macintux 4y ago
      The right choice was clearly option 3: “hey high school student, I’ve built something that I sincerely hope can help and I would be most grateful for any feedback”
      - EGreg 4y ago
        I appreciate your opinion, for sure. I wonder why you don’t consider 2 to be the “right” choice if the goal was not to bias the answer, which 3 does. Just as 3 seems clear to you, 2 seems clear to me. Have you heard of tainting a jury pool, or biasing the answers?
        Kye 4y ago
        Companies usually do focus groups for this kind of thing. And that kind of research usually involves a consent form and a research firm independent of the company... Mixing all these metaphors isn't helping. It's like you're flailing for some justification. You act like you're sure you're in the right, but you keep fighting with people. You could just move on without digging any deeper. It's long past obvious your arguments aren't persuasive. This isn't the behavior of someone who's genuinely that confident. You might not think a thread deep in HN matters, but I will remember it if any teacher friends mention your app.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

by Kye 4y ago

EGreg 4y ago

I don’t think asking someone a question about their own specific opinion about whether a particular website could help their peers OR NOT, is the same as promotion. For example, earlier today I promoted a service that I built (see my comment history) and clearly disclosed that it’s mine. In fact, sometimes you don’t WANT the person to know whether what you’re asking about is yours, so they can give a more honest assessment without worrying about hurting your feelings. It should not matter, and for some purposes it shoild be disclosed, whether you made it. As for being accused of shilling… sounds like the crowd accusing you was pretty extreme. The definition of a shill from Wikipedia is indeed nefarious: In most uses, shill refers to someone who purposely gives onlookers, participants or "marks" the impression of an enthusiastic customer independent of the seller, marketer or con artist, for whom they are secretly working. The person or group in league with the shill relies on crowd psychology to encourage other onlookers or audience members to do business with the seller or accept the ideas they are promoting. Shills may be employed by salespeople and professional marketing campaigns. Plant and stooge more commonly refer to a person who is secretly in league with another person or outside organization while pretending to be neutral or part of the organization in which they are planted, such as a magician's audience, a political party, or an intelligence organization

Kye 4y ago
All you're doing here is turning what looked innocent and well-intentioned into something suspicious. I hope you learn to take feedback better before your app is big enough that handling it poorly does real damage.
- EGreg 4y ago
  This is Hacker News. It is reasonable to have substantive discussion and correct mistakes. We are deep in a comment thread hardly anyone will see. So I think it’s OK to explain where I am coming from. It was innocent and well-intentioned. You just misunderstood the intention. If people say there is a systemic problem X in high school, and a high schooler confirms most of their friends have problem X, what do you think is more well-intentioned: 1) Promotion: Hey high school student! I built Y! Check it out! Tell all your friends! I think it might help them! Or… 2) Feedback: Hey high school student, do you THINK this COULD help your friends or not: Y My purpose was 2. I sometimes do 1, but here that was not my intent. When I’m promoting something, you know it. Now that you highlighted that I made it, though, it defeats much of the original intent. So now it has turned into a conversation about whether people can have purposes other than promotion. That’s fine. It is somewhat useful for me to get this straightened out. I won’t get an unbiased answer anymore, but I can get them elsewhere when I do case studies and beta testing. bottom line: doing a clinical trial or experiment or beta testing or asking someone’s opinion isn’t always primarily about promotion.
  - macintux 4y ago
    The right choice was clearly option 3: “hey high school student, I’ve built something that I sincerely hope can help and I would be most grateful for any feedback”
    - EGreg 4y ago
      I appreciate your opinion, for sure. I wonder why you don’t consider 2 to be the “right” choice if the goal was not to bias the answer, which 3 does. Just as 3 seems clear to you, 2 seems clear to me. Have you heard of tainting a jury pool, or biasing the answers?
      - Kye 4y ago
        Companies usually do focus groups for this kind of thing. And that kind of research usually involves a consent form and a research firm independent of the company... Mixing all these metaphors isn't helping. It's like you're flailing for some justification. You act like you're sure you're in the right, but you keep fighting with people. You could just move on without digging any deeper. It's long past obvious your arguments aren't persuasive. This isn't the behavior of someone who's genuinely that confident. You might not think a thread deep in HN matters, but I will remember it if any teacher friends mention your app.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]