3 ms·

look at the size of 4090 and think again

by sampa 3y ago

noizejoy 3y ago
The soundcard analogy may not be that faulty. General purpose soundcards have pretty much been replaced by motherboard components, while high end soundcards (audio interfaces) for DAW (digital audio workstation) use cases are an entirely separate market. Side note: Most of those high end audio interfaces are now external devices connected via USB (formerly also via Firewire). And since a DAW typically doesn’t need high end video, I didn’t bother with a separate GPU on my latest DAW build. I will only add a GPU card, if I ever want to do higher end gaming, video production or machine learning on that computer.
p1necone 3y ago
Dedicated GPUs are a chip about the same size as a CPU + a big board with power delivery, memory modules, cooling etc. CPUs would be the same size if they had all that stuff on their own discrete board too. Pairing a 4090 + a CPU on the same chip/side by side would be a stretch, but it has nothing to do with physical size - more the motherboard needing to handle power delivery, and the separate memory not being fast enough. Something like a 3060 is probably more reasonable. This already exists too - the PS5 and Xbox Series X/S both use APUs with much more powerful GPUs than are available as standalone purchases.
- ilyt 3y ago
  > Dedicated GPUs are a chip about the same size as a CPU + a big board with power delivery, memory modules, cooling etc. 4090 have die area of ~600mm2 Ryzen 7 have 71mm2 CPU die and 122mm2 IO die It's not even fucking comparable > CPUs would be the same size if they had all that stuff on their own discrete board too Oh, oh, I know, we can call the board that has all the power and IO CPU needs a "motherboard" cos it cradles the CPU in its hold (socket). Oh, wait, that's exactly how it is.
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    That's because you're comparing one of the biggest GPUs to a midrange CPU. Epyc 9654 has 12xCCD, which is bigger than the 4090. Radeon RX 6400 has a 107mm2 die, which is smaller than the Ryzen IO die.
    - ilyt 3y ago
      That's server CPU. 7950X3D isn't that much bigger,only one extra CCD > Epyc 9654 has 12xCCD That's $7k CPU you're comparing to $1600 GPU
      - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
        I named a big one. It's expensive. The 9354P is $2,730 and still has 8 CCD. That's >60% more than the 4090, but it's also >60% bigger, because Epyc has a ~400mm2 I/O die on top of the CCDs.
    - p1necone 3y ago
      Ryzen 7 is the high end of the gaming market in AMDs offerings. Buying an EPYC would give you worse performance for more cost and higher power budget (games still generally benefit more from a modest core count + high single core speed rather than the high core count + modest single core speed found in most high end server/workstation chips).
      - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
        Ryzen 7 is the midrange processor. Ryzen 9 has a higher boost clock but also has two CCD for not much more money. The high end is Threadripper (though there isn't a Zen4 one (yet?)), and that has up to 8 CCD which is still bigger than the 4090. You're comparing a ~$350 CPU to a ~$1600 GPU.
        p1necone 3y ago
        No, Ryzen 7 is the high end of their regular desktop chips. ThreadRipper is a different market segment altogether, and with all the ones they've released so far have been worse for gaming outside of a few titles that really benefit from the high thread count. Intel and Ryzens consumer chips both follow the same marketing formula: > Celeron/Athlon: ultra low end > Ryzen 3/i3: low end > Ryzen 5/i5: mid range > Ryzen 7/i7: high end > Ryzen 9/i9: I have money coming out of my ears and want a bigger number than everyone else. CPUs in general are cheaper than GPUs - spending the same amount on the CPU as the GPU has almost never been the right move. The fact that you have to move out of the consumer product range and into the workstation stuff to even find CPUs that cost as much as high end consumer GPUs should make that clear - the GPU equivalent in that space would be stuff like Quadros or RTX AXXX, which just like threadrippers and epycs are worse for gaming because they focus on memory and stability rather than raw power.
- sliken 3y ago
  Grace + Hopper is very similar to a 4090 + CPU. They are each on their own die/chiplet, but share a package. The CPU will of course be ARM not x86-64, but otherwise very similar to what you describe.

look at the size of 4090 and think again

by sampa 3y ago

look at the size of 4090 and think again

The soundcard analogy may not be that faulty. General purpose soundcards have pretty much been replaced by motherboard components, while high end soundcards (audio interfaces) for DAW (digital audio workstation) use cases are an entirely separate market. Side note: Most of those high end audio interfaces are now external devices connected via USB (formerly also via Firewire). And since a DAW typically doesn’t need high end video, I didn’t bother with a separate GPU on my latest DAW build. I will only add a GPU card, if I ever want to do higher end gaming, video production or machine learning on that computer.

p1necone 3y ago

Dedicated GPUs are a chip about the same size as a CPU + a big board with power delivery, memory modules, cooling etc. CPUs would be the same size if they had all that stuff on their own discrete board too. Pairing a 4090 + a CPU on the same chip/side by side would be a stretch, but it has nothing to do with physical size - more the motherboard needing to handle power delivery, and the separate memory not being fast enough. Something like a 3060 is probably more reasonable. This already exists too - the PS5 and Xbox Series X/S both use APUs with much more powerful GPUs than are available as standalone purchases.

ilyt 3y ago
> Dedicated GPUs are a chip about the same size as a CPU + a big board with power delivery, memory modules, cooling etc. 4090 have die area of ~600mm2 Ryzen 7 have 71mm2 CPU die and 122mm2 IO die It's not even fucking comparable > CPUs would be the same size if they had all that stuff on their own discrete board too Oh, oh, I know, we can call the board that has all the power and IO CPU needs a "motherboard" cos it cradles the CPU in its hold (socket). Oh, wait, that's exactly how it is.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  That's because you're comparing one of the biggest GPUs to a midrange CPU. Epyc 9654 has 12xCCD, which is bigger than the 4090. Radeon RX 6400 has a 107mm2 die, which is smaller than the Ryzen IO die.
  - ilyt 3y ago
    That's server CPU. 7950X3D isn't that much bigger,only one extra CCD > Epyc 9654 has 12xCCD That's $7k CPU you're comparing to $1600 GPU
    - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
      I named a big one. It's expensive. The 9354P is $2,730 and still has 8 CCD. That's >60% more than the 4090, but it's also >60% bigger, because Epyc has a ~400mm2 I/O die on top of the CCDs.
  - p1necone 3y ago
    Ryzen 7 is the high end of the gaming market in AMDs offerings. Buying an EPYC would give you worse performance for more cost and higher power budget (games still generally benefit more from a modest core count + high single core speed rather than the high core count + modest single core speed found in most high end server/workstation chips).
    - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
      Ryzen 7 is the midrange processor. Ryzen 9 has a higher boost clock but also has two CCD for not much more money. The high end is Threadripper (though there isn't a Zen4 one (yet?)), and that has up to 8 CCD which is still bigger than the 4090. You're comparing a ~$350 CPU to a ~$1600 GPU.
      - p1necone 3y ago
        No, Ryzen 7 is the high end of their regular desktop chips. ThreadRipper is a different market segment altogether, and with all the ones they've released so far have been worse for gaming outside of a few titles that really benefit from the high thread count. Intel and Ryzens consumer chips both follow the same marketing formula: > Celeron/Athlon: ultra low end > Ryzen 3/i3: low end > Ryzen 5/i5: mid range > Ryzen 7/i7: high end > Ryzen 9/i9: I have money coming out of my ears and want a bigger number than everyone else. CPUs in general are cheaper than GPUs - spending the same amount on the CPU as the GPU has almost never been the right move. The fact that you have to move out of the consumer product range and into the workstation stuff to even find CPUs that cost as much as high end consumer GPUs should make that clear - the GPU equivalent in that space would be stuff like Quadros or RTX AXXX, which just like threadrippers and epycs are worse for gaming because they focus on memory and stability rather than raw power.
sliken 3y ago
Grace + Hopper is very similar to a 4090 + CPU. They are each on their own die/chiplet, but share a package. The CPU will of course be ARM not x86-64, but otherwise very similar to what you describe.