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The entire Internet at the 'fantastic' time of Reddit was very much tilted towards the elite class that could 1. Afford an expensive computer or phone (or have

The entire Internet at the 'fantastic' time of Reddit was very much tilted towards the elite class that could 1. Afford an expensive computer or phone (or have access from University) 2. Afford Internet (and for an added bump of exclusivity add mobile Internet) (or have access from University) 3. Have the time/inclination to put lots of energy into CREATING Internet content (via either a hobby site, or composing well thought out posts). What you are complaining about is the quality of a restaurant that has gone from an exclusive new spot you discovered to a Chili's franchise. (Phil's Fish Market?). What everyone on Hacker News seems to long for is an Internet limited to 'that class' of people. They complain about billionaires and advertising, but maybe they should take a broader look at what they are really longing for.

Eisenstein 3y ago
Sure, having a group of people who are of the same general education, sensibilities, and class is desirable. When people who are only in the same space due to shared interests and experiences become too inclusive then that gets diluted and they are left being around a lot of people who are just a lot of people. No one likes that except extroverts and attention seekers. Trying to shame us for pining for the days of educated and interesting content made by people we relate to for reasons that are not tied to monetizing everything (because, well, we don't need it) is silly, because by pretending you think that is wrong means you are either short-sighted or bitter. This is not to say that exclusivity is desirable, but to say that communities exist for a reason and being nostalgic about losing a healthy one does not make you a bad person.
hayst4ck 3y ago
> What everyone on Hacker News seems to long for is an Internet limited to 'that class' of people. Yep, that is exactly what I want. I want to be around and interact with other educated people who act in good faith and I don't want to be around uneducated people who act in bad faith or can't see or aren't open to the contradictions in their own ideas. Eternal September is the name of this idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_News https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_News Graham stated he hopes to avoid the Eternal September that results in the general decline of intelligent discourse within a community. http://paulgraham.com/hackernews.html http://paulgraham.com/hackernews.html The good things in a community site come from people more than technology; it's mainly in the prevention of bad things that technology comes into play. Technology certainly can enhance discussion. Nested comments do, for example. But I'd rather use a site with primitive features and smart, nice users than a more advanced one whose users were idiots or trolls.
- maeil 3y ago
  Why are you phrasing things as if "educated" and "good faith" are related? > I don't want to be around uneducated people who act in bad faith Are you fine with being around educated people who act in bad faith? Those generally cause much more damage.
  - hayst4ck 3y ago
    In the game of prisoners dilemma, I want to be around people who practice the winning strategy. A game to demonstrate why that is important: https://ncase.me/trust/ https://ncase.me/trust/ If you cooperate when others defect, you promote defection as a strategy. If you defect when others cooperate, you undermine cooperation as a winning strategy. So a community that shut down defectors and cooperates by default creates a community based around cooperation -- a high trust community. Bad faith is another word for defection. It is hard to understand the game you are playing or see the consequences of your actions without education.
mandmandam 3y ago
I think that's pretty unfair. I don't give a toss if someone has an expensive device or university internet, and I resent the implication that only "an elite class" can compose a well thought out post. The fact is, billionaires pay people to keep the status quo. Those people hire other people - to program bots, to hire PR goons, to spend millions or even billions on swaying vulnerable minds with echo-chamber media drones -- all to warp discussion online and IRL. Tobacco companies did it, fossil fuel companies did it, and you can be certain tech companies and governments are doing it too. You're discounting all of that, and then calling people classist for wanting good-faith discussion. Uncool.
primax 3y ago
Unapologetically yes, this is what I want. You can call it classist all you want but I want the ivory tower, not the swamp.

Eisenstein 3y ago

Sure, having a group of people who are of the same general education, sensibilities, and class is desirable. When people who are only in the same space due to shared interests and experiences become too inclusive then that gets diluted and they are left being around a lot of people who are just a lot of people. No one likes that except extroverts and attention seekers. Trying to shame us for pining for the days of educated and interesting content made by people we relate to for reasons that are not tied to monetizing everything (because, well, we don't need it) is silly, because by pretending you think that is wrong means you are either short-sighted or bitter. This is not to say that exclusivity is desirable, but to say that communities exist for a reason and being nostalgic about losing a healthy one does not make you a bad person.

hayst4ck 3y ago

> What everyone on Hacker News seems to long for is an Internet limited to 'that class' of people. Yep, that is exactly what I want. I want to be around and interact with other educated people who act in good faith and I don't want to be around uneducated people who act in bad faith or can't see or aren't open to the contradictions in their own ideas. Eternal September is the name of this idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_News https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_News Graham stated he hopes to avoid the Eternal September that results in the general decline of intelligent discourse within a community. http://paulgraham.com/hackernews.html http://paulgraham.com/hackernews.html The good things in a community site come from people more than technology; it's mainly in the prevention of bad things that technology comes into play. Technology certainly can enhance discussion. Nested comments do, for example. But I'd rather use a site with primitive features and smart, nice users than a more advanced one whose users were idiots or trolls.

maeil 3y ago
Why are you phrasing things as if "educated" and "good faith" are related? > I don't want to be around uneducated people who act in bad faith Are you fine with being around educated people who act in bad faith? Those generally cause much more damage.
- hayst4ck 3y ago
  In the game of prisoners dilemma, I want to be around people who practice the winning strategy. A game to demonstrate why that is important: https://ncase.me/trust/ https://ncase.me/trust/ If you cooperate when others defect, you promote defection as a strategy. If you defect when others cooperate, you undermine cooperation as a winning strategy. So a community that shut down defectors and cooperates by default creates a community based around cooperation -- a high trust community. Bad faith is another word for defection. It is hard to understand the game you are playing or see the consequences of your actions without education.

mandmandam 3y ago

I think that's pretty unfair. I don't give a toss if someone has an expensive device or university internet, and I resent the implication that only "an elite class" can compose a well thought out post. The fact is, billionaires pay people to keep the status quo. Those people hire other people - to program bots, to hire PR goons, to spend millions or even billions on swaying vulnerable minds with echo-chamber media drones -- all to warp discussion online and IRL. Tobacco companies did it, fossil fuel companies did it, and you can be certain tech companies and governments are doing it too. You're discounting all of that, and then calling people classist for wanting good-faith discussion. Uncool.

primax 3y ago

Unapologetically yes, this is what I want. You can call it classist all you want but I want the ivory tower, not the swamp.