8 ms·

Saudi company draws unlimited Arizona ground water amid drought

141 points by noworld 3y ago

jesperlang 3y ago
In case anyone missed it, the alfalfa is shipped to Saudi Arabia to feed cattle. Complete madness!
- Ekaros 3y ago
  Sounds like free market globalism to me. Exactly what have allowed USA to make untold amounts of "wealth"... And now they are complaining as others are doing it there...
Panino 3y ago
> In fact, the state rents some land to Fondomonte for $25 an acre. The company can then pump unlimited amounts of groundwater for essentially no cost. There's no justification for this. What makes it worse is that Saudi Arabia already has what it needs to terraform itself and make its own deserts agriculturally productive in an ecological way. They're just not doing it. Instead, they're working with the government of Arizona to make Arizona look like Saudi Arabia. For $25 an acre.
nerdchum 3y ago
[flagged]
- smt88 3y ago
  > The US just lets foreign countries use it for its resources now. The US is dead last in net exports in the entire world[1], so you literally couldn't be more wrong about this. > India just hit a record for remittances from the US Those workers pay their taxes. It's up to them what they do with the rest of their salary. Or do you just want to raise taxes on all US immigrants? > much of the country is struggling for jobs This is among the best job markets for workers in US history. Companies are struggling to fill jobs. We need more immigrants to fill those jobs. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_exports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_expor...
  - ajhurliman 3y ago
    Silver lining to all those remittances: if the whole world is using our currency to buy goods and services (and also holding dollars as a reserve currency) we can print a lot more money before we’re affected by inflation, or at least that’s how I understood it.
    - nerdchum 3y ago
      That's got nothing to do with remittances. That's got to do with central governments... And many central governments are moving away from using the US as central currency recently because we're being destabilized. Partly by massive amounts of immigration on the order of 2 million per year, as much as the population of some entire states!
  - peepeepoopoo5 3y ago
    >This is among the best job markets for workers in US history. And yet most companies are either laying people off or have hiring freezes, and I've personally been unemployed for three months now. Your post has no basis in reality, and it sounds like you're trying to come up with post hoc justifications for your political orthodoxy.
    - smt88 3y ago
      The economy has been rapidly adding jobs lately, so how can most companies be laying people off? I'm sorry you're unable to find work, but an anecdote isn't data.
      - nerdchum 3y ago
        You need to o differentiate between middle class jobs and poverty jobs like Uber driver and burger flipper. "Adding jobs" is a poor and lazy indicator of a healthy middle class and healthy economy.
  - nerdchum 3y ago
    >This is among the best job markets for workers in US history. Jobs that don't pay the bills are abundant! There's never been more subway sandwich and Uber driver jobs in history! Middle class jobs? Flooded with immigrants and hyper competitive. Much like the housing market which is skyrocket expensive partly because of the 2 million immigrants (the size of some states!) we let in per year who increase demand for housing. > Those workers pay their taxes. It's up to them what they do with the rest of their salary Yeah spend it in other countries vs an American who calls this place home who will spend it here to better communities in the USA? They're literally here to exploit the economy of the USA. Also, what does exports have to do with anything? Does that include siphoning money from the taxpayers to Ukraine? Or siphoning money from the economy in general by immigrants?
- notch898c 3y ago
  [dead]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- desi_ninja 3y ago
  This is such a bad take. Indians are stuck in archaic immigration laws, pay taxes for US services they can never use, send whatever small amount they can save to family in India. And you have a problem with that.
  - readthenotes1 3y ago
    The United States has a perverse immigration policy where we punish people who try to come in through the approved and legal avenues, and rely on those who don't in order to feed our population.
    - nerdchum 3y ago
      If those illegal workers weren't here the wages on those jobs would stabilize to a wage that an American could afford to work it and Americans would work it. The rich love immigration. They make way more money off the backs of workers.
      - yunohn 3y ago
        That would always be an interesting experiment, if only the people in power would ever allow it. Unfortunately, all political parties try their hardest to perpetuate and foster “illegal” immigration to fill their own pockets.
      - readthenotes1 3y ago
        I am pretty sure that the Americans would not do that work anymore. First off it require a bunch of them to leave cities and there is a remarkable tendency for people not to do that. Second, the work is extremely grueling. Many Americans are no longer able to do that sort of physical labor. Finally, the spiraling cost of food would be so inflationary that we could not afford to pay the people doing the back breaking labor enough for them to consider it worthwhile compared to their other money making options.
  - notch898c 3y ago
    [dead]
- rasz 3y ago
  >Sending billions of our tax dollars to Ukraine. in hardware, manufactured on US soil by US workers https://thehill.com/policy/defense/unprepared-for-long-war-us-army-under-gun-to-make-more-ammo/ https://thehill.com/policy/defense/unprepared-for-long-war-u..., often build over 30 years ago for specific purpose of killing russians (stingers)
  - nerdchum 3y ago
    Nice. They're still making things to give to other countries either way. Would much rather my tax money pay American workers to work on the countless issues were facing in America.
    - _kbh_ 3y ago
      They are mostly sending stuff that was stock piled to fight a war with Russia in eastern Europe too, fight a war with Russia in Eastern Europe. Its all upsides for the USA, they get to decimate one their biggest military foes, show off how weak and bad Russian military equipment is, and get to actually be involved on the right side for a war for the first time in forever and they don't even have to fight.
      - nerdchum 3y ago
        there is zero upside to spending my tax money for war in other countries.
        _kbh_ 3y ago
        > there is zero upside to spending my tax money for war in other countries. So you don't think helping protect the democracy of another country is a upside worthy of 'your' tax dollars?. Or destroying your enemy militarily without even having to be in a war?.
        nerdchum 3y ago
        > protect the democracy of other countries "Protecting democracy"...the military industrial complex has been saying this as a justification for doing nasty things....for decades. You should scope out modern American history for the past 100 years.
scottshea 3y ago
The water permits were recently revoked: https://ktar.com/story/5487088/arizona-revokes-water-permits-for-saudi-arabia-owned-alfalfa-farm/ https://ktar.com/story/5487088/arizona-revokes-water-permits...
- aaronbrethorst 3y ago
  Hmm, strange, I wonder what might have changed in Arizona in the past few months compared to, say, I don’t know, a year ago…? https://www.azmirror.com/2022/11/16/maga-fails-in-arizona-for-the-third-straight-election/ https://www.azmirror.com/2022/11/16/maga-fails-in-arizona-fo...
  - tqkxzugoaupvwqr 3y ago
    > This site not available in your country Can you please summarize?
    - Tangurena2 3y ago
      November 2022 was the 3rd election in a row (2018, 2020 & 2022) that the MAGA "movement" failed at Arizona's ballot boxes. The article goes on to mention that Republican candidates have been getting more and more irrational/crazy/authoritarian and that Arizona voters want some normal Republicans like John McCain (who served as a Senator, representing Arizona, for 31 years, also was the Republican candidate for President in 2008). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain
    - tlavoie 3y ago
      The first few paragraphs seem like a reasonable summary: "The historically good results for Arizona Democrats at the polls this month are the third cycle in a row that MAGA has faltered at the ballot box, and political observers say it should be a clarion call to Republicans that Trumpism is a loser in the Grand Canyon State. But operatives in both parties say that will be easier said than done, as Donald Trump’s grip on the Republican Party electorate remains strong. “Conservatism wins in Arizona. Crazy does not,” said Chris Baker, a Republican political consultant who works on congressional and legislative races in Arizona and across the country. “The Republican Party in Arizona is at a crossroads right now. Is this the direction we want to continue in?”"
garyfirestorm 3y ago
Wow I cannot even fathom the amount of hypocrisy here. If it’s so important there should be regulations about this and NO ONE should be able to do draw any amount of water as they please. However time and time again certain political party has fought for deregulation and have always allowed their cronies to do whatever they want as long as money greased the hands. It’s cute how ppl are finding it outrageous that a legally leased land with all the proper instruments in place is somehow ‘violating’ something…
- lazyeye 3y ago
  It's violating common sense.
- mistrial9 3y ago
  power is the ability to do what others cannot, in front of everyone
animitronix 3y ago
Why we still speak to the Saudis after 9/11 I'll never know.
- readthenotes1 3y ago
  It has a lot to do with transportation, plastics, Israel, Iran, and money. But, we don't talk as much as we used to.
- shmde 3y ago
  USA will even sell its soul to the devil if he had large crude oil reserves in hell.
- Eumenes 3y ago
  Saudi Arabi wont last the 21st century - for the US (and Israel), its a relationship of mutual convenience. They'll get Iraq'd, Iran'd, etc, eventually.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Tangurena2 3y ago
  For that, I recommend reading the book House of Bush, House of Saud : The Secret Relationship Between the World's Two Most Powerful Dynasties [0]. The short answer to your question is: money, oil and corruption. The Vice President's official salary was about 10% of his annual income (from the company he was CEO of) that he still received as VP. The administration devoted a huge amount of effort into convincing the public (both domestic & foreign) that the House of Saud had nothing to do with 911 and that some other random bad guy just happened to be responsible for it all. Like one of those old Bond movies where the Head Villain looks the the henchling who failed directly in the eyes, then saying "this is what we do to failures, then turns and kills the guy standing next to him. 0 - https://www.amazon.com/House-Bush-Saud-Relationship-Dynasties-dp-1903933625/dp/1903933625/ https://www.amazon.com/House-Bush-Saud-Relationship-Dynastie...
  - animitronix 3y ago
helf 3y ago
[dead]
slg 3y ago
It is wild to me that we still frame stories like this in such an openly xenophobic way. Your opinions on the Saudis should not matter. The nationality of the farm owner is completely irrelevant to the issue. Growing water intensive plants in the middle of the desert is stupid and bad even if 100% of the profit goes to Americans.
- scatterhead 3y ago
  It's wild to me that we frame legitimate concerns as xenophobic. The second sentence explains why the nationality matters: > Some farms are foreign-owned and are shipping the crop to Saudi Arabia, where it's illegal to grow because it takes too much water. In this globalistic world it's worth considering that stringent policy in one area of the world can be worked around by taking advantage of lax policy in another area of the world. It's not xenophobic to talk about that. It would be ignorant not to.
  - slg 3y ago
    >In this globalistic world it's worth considering that stringent policy in one area of the world can be worked around by taking advantage of lax policy in another area of the world. It's not xenophobic to talk about that. It would be ignorant not to. Saudi owned farms circumventing Saudi laws is an issue for the people of Saudi Arabia. If it is legal in the US, it should be legal for everyone. If you want it to be illegal in the US, it should be illegal for everyone. The owners are and should be irrelevant.
    - morelisp 3y ago
      > If you want it to be illegal in the US, it should be illegal for everyone. It is reasonable for a region to decide its natural resources should benefit the people who live there above people who do not live there.
      - Eumenes 3y ago
        This 100%.
gwbas1c 3y ago
> Fondomonte trucks haul dried alfalfa off the property it uses and ships it back to the Middle East to feed cattle. According to Mayes, cows in Saudi Arabia are essentially drinking Arizona water. The above statement makes no sense. If cows are consuming dried alfalfa, how are they drinking?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Turing_Machine 3y ago
  "Dried" hay still contains a significant amount of water. > It is recommended to bale alfalfa when moisture is between 18 and 20% https://ag.umass.edu/crops-dairy-livestock-equine/fact-sheets/harvest-management-for-high-quality-alfalfa-hay https://ag.umass.edu/crops-dairy-livestock-equine/fact-sheet...
drewcoo 3y ago
> alfalfa > it's a growing controversy Boo! Boo!
olliej 3y ago
Isn’t Arizona also getting a bunch of TSMC fabs? Those use a gargantuan amount of water as well.
- Turing_Machine 3y ago
  Chip fabs do use a lot of water, but not by comparison with agriculture. Arizona uses about 5 million acre-feet (gah!) of water for agricultural purposes per year. https://www.arizonawaterfacts.com/water-your-facts https://www.arizonawaterfacts.com/water-your-facts One TSMC fab uses around 4 billion gallons per year. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/sep/18/semiconductor-silicon-chips-carbon-footprint-climate https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/sep/18/semicond... Converting everything to liters (and hoping I didn't mess it up... "acre-feet", for the love of God) shows that agriculture uses around 400 times as much water as a fab.
johnea 3y ago
[flagged]

141 points by noworld 3y ago

jesperlang 3y ago

In case anyone missed it, the alfalfa is shipped to Saudi Arabia to feed cattle. Complete madness!

Ekaros 3y ago
Sounds like free market globalism to me. Exactly what have allowed USA to make untold amounts of "wealth"... And now they are complaining as others are doing it there...

Panino 3y ago

> In fact, the state rents some land to Fondomonte for $25 an acre. The company can then pump unlimited amounts of groundwater for essentially no cost. There's no justification for this. What makes it worse is that Saudi Arabia already has what it needs to terraform itself and make its own deserts agriculturally productive in an ecological way. They're just not doing it. Instead, they're working with the government of Arizona to make Arizona look like Saudi Arabia. For $25 an acre.

nerdchum 3y ago

[flagged]

smt88 3y ago
> The US just lets foreign countries use it for its resources now. The US is dead last in net exports in the entire world[1], so you literally couldn't be more wrong about this. > India just hit a record for remittances from the US Those workers pay their taxes. It's up to them what they do with the rest of their salary. Or do you just want to raise taxes on all US immigrants? > much of the country is struggling for jobs This is among the best job markets for workers in US history. Companies are struggling to fill jobs. We need more immigrants to fill those jobs. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_exports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_expor...
- ajhurliman 3y ago
  Silver lining to all those remittances: if the whole world is using our currency to buy goods and services (and also holding dollars as a reserve currency) we can print a lot more money before we’re affected by inflation, or at least that’s how I understood it.
  - nerdchum 3y ago
    That's got nothing to do with remittances. That's got to do with central governments... And many central governments are moving away from using the US as central currency recently because we're being destabilized. Partly by massive amounts of immigration on the order of 2 million per year, as much as the population of some entire states!
- peepeepoopoo5 3y ago
  >This is among the best job markets for workers in US history. And yet most companies are either laying people off or have hiring freezes, and I've personally been unemployed for three months now. Your post has no basis in reality, and it sounds like you're trying to come up with post hoc justifications for your political orthodoxy.
  - smt88 3y ago
    The economy has been rapidly adding jobs lately, so how can most companies be laying people off? I'm sorry you're unable to find work, but an anecdote isn't data.
    - nerdchum 3y ago
      You need to o differentiate between middle class jobs and poverty jobs like Uber driver and burger flipper. "Adding jobs" is a poor and lazy indicator of a healthy middle class and healthy economy.
- nerdchum 3y ago
  >This is among the best job markets for workers in US history. Jobs that don't pay the bills are abundant! There's never been more subway sandwich and Uber driver jobs in history! Middle class jobs? Flooded with immigrants and hyper competitive. Much like the housing market which is skyrocket expensive partly because of the 2 million immigrants (the size of some states!) we let in per year who increase demand for housing. > Those workers pay their taxes. It's up to them what they do with the rest of their salary Yeah spend it in other countries vs an American who calls this place home who will spend it here to better communities in the USA? They're literally here to exploit the economy of the USA. Also, what does exports have to do with anything? Does that include siphoning money from the taxpayers to Ukraine? Or siphoning money from the economy in general by immigrants?
notch898c 3y ago
[dead]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
desi_ninja 3y ago
This is such a bad take. Indians are stuck in archaic immigration laws, pay taxes for US services they can never use, send whatever small amount they can save to family in India. And you have a problem with that.
- readthenotes1 3y ago
  The United States has a perverse immigration policy where we punish people who try to come in through the approved and legal avenues, and rely on those who don't in order to feed our population.
  - nerdchum 3y ago
    If those illegal workers weren't here the wages on those jobs would stabilize to a wage that an American could afford to work it and Americans would work it. The rich love immigration. They make way more money off the backs of workers.
    - yunohn 3y ago
      That would always be an interesting experiment, if only the people in power would ever allow it. Unfortunately, all political parties try their hardest to perpetuate and foster “illegal” immigration to fill their own pockets.
    - readthenotes1 3y ago
      I am pretty sure that the Americans would not do that work anymore. First off it require a bunch of them to leave cities and there is a remarkable tendency for people not to do that. Second, the work is extremely grueling. Many Americans are no longer able to do that sort of physical labor. Finally, the spiraling cost of food would be so inflationary that we could not afford to pay the people doing the back breaking labor enough for them to consider it worthwhile compared to their other money making options.
- notch898c 3y ago
  [dead]
rasz 3y ago
>Sending billions of our tax dollars to Ukraine. in hardware, manufactured on US soil by US workers https://thehill.com/policy/defense/unprepared-for-long-war-us-army-under-gun-to-make-more-ammo/ https://thehill.com/policy/defense/unprepared-for-long-war-u..., often build over 30 years ago for specific purpose of killing russians (stingers)
- nerdchum 3y ago
  Nice. They're still making things to give to other countries either way. Would much rather my tax money pay American workers to work on the countless issues were facing in America.
  - _kbh_ 3y ago
    They are mostly sending stuff that was stock piled to fight a war with Russia in eastern Europe too, fight a war with Russia in Eastern Europe. Its all upsides for the USA, they get to decimate one their biggest military foes, show off how weak and bad Russian military equipment is, and get to actually be involved on the right side for a war for the first time in forever and they don't even have to fight.
    - nerdchum 3y ago
      there is zero upside to spending my tax money for war in other countries.
      - _kbh_ 3y ago
        > there is zero upside to spending my tax money for war in other countries. So you don't think helping protect the democracy of another country is a upside worthy of 'your' tax dollars?. Or destroying your enemy militarily without even having to be in a war?.
        nerdchum 3y ago
        > protect the democracy of other countries "Protecting democracy"...the military industrial complex has been saying this as a justification for doing nasty things....for decades. You should scope out modern American history for the past 100 years.

scottshea 3y ago

The water permits were recently revoked: https://ktar.com/story/5487088/arizona-revokes-water-permits-for-saudi-arabia-owned-alfalfa-farm/ https://ktar.com/story/5487088/arizona-revokes-water-permits...

aaronbrethorst 3y ago
Hmm, strange, I wonder what might have changed in Arizona in the past few months compared to, say, I don’t know, a year ago…? https://www.azmirror.com/2022/11/16/maga-fails-in-arizona-for-the-third-straight-election/ https://www.azmirror.com/2022/11/16/maga-fails-in-arizona-fo...
- tqkxzugoaupvwqr 3y ago
  > This site not available in your country Can you please summarize?
  - Tangurena2 3y ago
    November 2022 was the 3rd election in a row (2018, 2020 & 2022) that the MAGA "movement" failed at Arizona's ballot boxes. The article goes on to mention that Republican candidates have been getting more and more irrational/crazy/authoritarian and that Arizona voters want some normal Republicans like John McCain (who served as a Senator, representing Arizona, for 31 years, also was the Republican candidate for President in 2008). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain
  - tlavoie 3y ago
    The first few paragraphs seem like a reasonable summary: "The historically good results for Arizona Democrats at the polls this month are the third cycle in a row that MAGA has faltered at the ballot box, and political observers say it should be a clarion call to Republicans that Trumpism is a loser in the Grand Canyon State. But operatives in both parties say that will be easier said than done, as Donald Trump’s grip on the Republican Party electorate remains strong. “Conservatism wins in Arizona. Crazy does not,” said Chris Baker, a Republican political consultant who works on congressional and legislative races in Arizona and across the country. “The Republican Party in Arizona is at a crossroads right now. Is this the direction we want to continue in?”"

garyfirestorm 3y ago

Wow I cannot even fathom the amount of hypocrisy here. If it’s so important there should be regulations about this and NO ONE should be able to do draw any amount of water as they please. However time and time again certain political party has fought for deregulation and have always allowed their cronies to do whatever they want as long as money greased the hands. It’s cute how ppl are finding it outrageous that a legally leased land with all the proper instruments in place is somehow ‘violating’ something…

lazyeye 3y ago
It's violating common sense.
mistrial9 3y ago
power is the ability to do what others cannot, in front of everyone

animitronix 3y ago

Why we still speak to the Saudis after 9/11 I'll never know.

readthenotes1 3y ago
It has a lot to do with transportation, plastics, Israel, Iran, and money. But, we don't talk as much as we used to.
shmde 3y ago
USA will even sell its soul to the devil if he had large crude oil reserves in hell.
Eumenes 3y ago
Saudi Arabi wont last the 21st century - for the US (and Israel), its a relationship of mutual convenience. They'll get Iraq'd, Iran'd, etc, eventually.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Tangurena2 3y ago
For that, I recommend reading the book House of Bush, House of Saud : The Secret Relationship Between the World's Two Most Powerful Dynasties [0]. The short answer to your question is: money, oil and corruption. The Vice President's official salary was about 10% of his annual income (from the company he was CEO of) that he still received as VP. The administration devoted a huge amount of effort into convincing the public (both domestic & foreign) that the House of Saud had nothing to do with 911 and that some other random bad guy just happened to be responsible for it all. Like one of those old Bond movies where the Head Villain looks the the henchling who failed directly in the eyes, then saying "this is what we do to failures, then turns and kills the guy standing next to him. 0 - https://www.amazon.com/House-Bush-Saud-Relationship-Dynasties-dp-1903933625/dp/1903933625/ https://www.amazon.com/House-Bush-Saud-Relationship-Dynastie...
- animitronix 3y ago

helf 3y ago

[dead]

slg 3y ago

It is wild to me that we still frame stories like this in such an openly xenophobic way. Your opinions on the Saudis should not matter. The nationality of the farm owner is completely irrelevant to the issue. Growing water intensive plants in the middle of the desert is stupid and bad even if 100% of the profit goes to Americans.

scatterhead 3y ago
It's wild to me that we frame legitimate concerns as xenophobic. The second sentence explains why the nationality matters: > Some farms are foreign-owned and are shipping the crop to Saudi Arabia, where it's illegal to grow because it takes too much water. In this globalistic world it's worth considering that stringent policy in one area of the world can be worked around by taking advantage of lax policy in another area of the world. It's not xenophobic to talk about that. It would be ignorant not to.
- slg 3y ago
  >In this globalistic world it's worth considering that stringent policy in one area of the world can be worked around by taking advantage of lax policy in another area of the world. It's not xenophobic to talk about that. It would be ignorant not to. Saudi owned farms circumventing Saudi laws is an issue for the people of Saudi Arabia. If it is legal in the US, it should be legal for everyone. If you want it to be illegal in the US, it should be illegal for everyone. The owners are and should be irrelevant.
  - morelisp 3y ago
    > If you want it to be illegal in the US, it should be illegal for everyone. It is reasonable for a region to decide its natural resources should benefit the people who live there above people who do not live there.
    - Eumenes 3y ago
      This 100%.

gwbas1c 3y ago

> Fondomonte trucks haul dried alfalfa off the property it uses and ships it back to the Middle East to feed cattle. According to Mayes, cows in Saudi Arabia are essentially drinking Arizona water. The above statement makes no sense. If cows are consuming dried alfalfa, how are they drinking?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Turing_Machine 3y ago
"Dried" hay still contains a significant amount of water. > It is recommended to bale alfalfa when moisture is between 18 and 20% https://ag.umass.edu/crops-dairy-livestock-equine/fact-sheets/harvest-management-for-high-quality-alfalfa-hay https://ag.umass.edu/crops-dairy-livestock-equine/fact-sheet...

drewcoo 3y ago

> alfalfa > it's a growing controversy Boo! Boo!

olliej 3y ago

Isn’t Arizona also getting a bunch of TSMC fabs? Those use a gargantuan amount of water as well.

Turing_Machine 3y ago
Chip fabs do use a lot of water, but not by comparison with agriculture. Arizona uses about 5 million acre-feet (gah!) of water for agricultural purposes per year. https://www.arizonawaterfacts.com/water-your-facts https://www.arizonawaterfacts.com/water-your-facts One TSMC fab uses around 4 billion gallons per year. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/sep/18/semiconductor-silicon-chips-carbon-footprint-climate https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/sep/18/semicond... Converting everything to liters (and hoping I didn't mess it up... "acre-feet", for the love of God) shows that agriculture uses around 400 times as much water as a fab.

johnea 3y ago

[flagged]