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The US has been proven to meddle in democratic elections in every single continent, except Africa I think, at this point. But meddling in Africa will surely be

The US has been proven to meddle in democratic elections in every single continent, except Africa I think, at this point. But meddling in Africa will surely be made public at one point or another.

ethbr0 3y ago
On the other hand, are we really comparing the leadership of Afghanistan and Iraq to Ukraine and deciding these things are the same? Last I checked, Ukraine hadn't invaded its neighbors, gassed ethnic minorities, or taken freedom from its entire female population. The US handled Afghanistan and Iraq poorly, and lied about reasons for going in, but there were actual underlying reasons. Ukraine is only being invaded because Russia thinks it can. Hell, Ukraine explicitly gave up its weapons of mass destruction... in exchange for security guarantees... from Russia.
- gumballindie 3y ago
  Dont bother, it’s a waste of time. I’ve gotten used to the idea that some people are pure evil.
  - alienicecream 3y ago
    Yes, people that don't agree with you are pure evil.
- capableweb 3y ago
  Multiple actors can be horrible at the same time. The US is pretty horrible when it invades other countries, so is Russia. As far as I know, Ukraine never had a military big enough to actually do any invasion of other countries, but if Ukraine was the size of the US with the military of the US, I wouldn't bet on them not being horrible when invading other countries.
  - ethbr0 3y ago
    Multiple actors can be horrible (<0 ethics), but that doesn't mean that their absolute ethics value is irrelevant, or their relative horribleness to others. Russia is systematically deporting Ukrainian children to Russia and integrating them into Russian families as a matter of state policy. They're also indiscriminately bombing civilian targets weekly. Even during the worst days of Fallujah, the US and UK didn't pull back and just arbitrarily pound the city to dust with standoff munitions out of spite. Ukraine inherited a substantial amount of Soviet materiel after the collapse of the USSR, as well as the personnel trained in its use, however this quickly deteriorated as the support industrial base was in tatters (in Ukraine and Russia). But in the early 90s they absolutely could have made a very credible invasion against most of their neighbors. [0,1] Especially, say, the Cobasna ammunition depot in Moldova that's right on their border with up to 20,000 tons of Soviet munitions. [2] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nunn%E2%80%93Lugar_Cooperative_Threat_Reduction https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nunn%E2%80%93Lugar_Cooperati... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobasna_ammunition_depot https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobasna_ammunition_depot
  - nickpp 3y ago
    It doesn't even compare. Countries unlucky enough to be invaded by Russia wished we were "conquered" by USA instead.
    - inawarminister 3y ago
      Uh, millions of dead Iraqis and Afghans are going to see your wish and say "sure, why not?"
  - ghostwriter 3y ago
    > but if Ukraine was the size of the US with the military of the US, I wouldn't bet on them not being horrible when invading other countries. It didn’t stop them from taking part in the invasion of Iraq: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_Mechanized_Brigade_(Ukraine) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_Mechanized_Brigade_(Ukrain... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_Mechanized_Brigade_(Ukraine) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_Mechanized_Brigade_(Ukrain...
- ForestCritter 3y ago
  Actually, Ukraine was forcing an ethnic, language and religious cleansing on its people in the two regions that petitioned for sovereignty. Read about this several years ago before all this stuff blew up and propaganda made stuff murky. Their current leader was put in place by a coup. The old regime was corrupt but that doesn't mean the new one is better. Ukrain was already in a civil war.
  - ethbr0 3y ago
    By that standard, the UK, Spain and France are also in civil wars. IMHO, once military forces reach rough parity, civil wars should never be a justification for external involvement, because it always ends badly. Internal problems need internal solutions. If Russia and NATO had both stayed out of Ukraine, it would have been better for all Ukrainians. But we zoomed past the Rubicon on that when Crimea was invaded with actual Russian troops.
    - ForestCritter 3y ago
      Well, I'm basing my next statement on a statement from an ex military individual from Crimea, but he said that the Crimea business was a backend deal and that the military in Crimea was explicitly ordered to not engage under any circumstance. The Crimea government had no desire to stand. I do agree that Russia and Nato should keep their noses out, but then I also think so should we. Russia being bad guys doesn't make Ukraine good is the point I was trying to make.
    - cudgy 3y ago
      “By that standard, the UK, Spain and France are also in civil wars.” Nice try. How do these compare at all to the Ukraine Donbas conflict? During the span of 2014-2022, the war in Ukraine (pre Russian invasion) between Ukraine and Donbas region resulted in the following: Ukraine troops 4,647 killed, 70 missing, 13,800–14,200 wounded Donbas troops 6,517 killed, 15,800–16,200 wounded 3,404 Ukrainian civilians killed 14,200–14,400 Donbas killed 51,000–54,000 wounded overall 1.6 million Ukrainians internally displaced; over 1 million fled abroad https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas_(2014–2022) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas_(2014–2022)
cultofmetatron 3y ago
> But meddling in Africa will surely be made public at one point or another. The french has most of africa on lockdown in that regard

The US has been proven to meddle in democratic elections in every single continent, except Africa I think, at this point. But meddling in Africa will surely be made public at one point or another.

ethbr0 3y ago

On the other hand, are we really comparing the leadership of Afghanistan and Iraq to Ukraine and deciding these things are the same? Last I checked, Ukraine hadn't invaded its neighbors, gassed ethnic minorities, or taken freedom from its entire female population. The US handled Afghanistan and Iraq poorly, and lied about reasons for going in, but there were actual underlying reasons. Ukraine is only being invaded because Russia thinks it can. Hell, Ukraine explicitly gave up its weapons of mass destruction... in exchange for security guarantees... from Russia.

gumballindie 3y ago
Dont bother, it’s a waste of time. I’ve gotten used to the idea that some people are pure evil.
- alienicecream 3y ago
  Yes, people that don't agree with you are pure evil.
capableweb 3y ago
Multiple actors can be horrible at the same time. The US is pretty horrible when it invades other countries, so is Russia. As far as I know, Ukraine never had a military big enough to actually do any invasion of other countries, but if Ukraine was the size of the US with the military of the US, I wouldn't bet on them not being horrible when invading other countries.
- ethbr0 3y ago
  Multiple actors can be horrible (<0 ethics), but that doesn't mean that their absolute ethics value is irrelevant, or their relative horribleness to others. Russia is systematically deporting Ukrainian children to Russia and integrating them into Russian families as a matter of state policy. They're also indiscriminately bombing civilian targets weekly. Even during the worst days of Fallujah, the US and UK didn't pull back and just arbitrarily pound the city to dust with standoff munitions out of spite. Ukraine inherited a substantial amount of Soviet materiel after the collapse of the USSR, as well as the personnel trained in its use, however this quickly deteriorated as the support industrial base was in tatters (in Ukraine and Russia). But in the early 90s they absolutely could have made a very credible invasion against most of their neighbors. [0,1] Especially, say, the Cobasna ammunition depot in Moldova that's right on their border with up to 20,000 tons of Soviet munitions. [2] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nunn%E2%80%93Lugar_Cooperative_Threat_Reduction https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nunn%E2%80%93Lugar_Cooperati... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobasna_ammunition_depot https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobasna_ammunition_depot
- nickpp 3y ago
  It doesn't even compare. Countries unlucky enough to be invaded by Russia wished we were "conquered" by USA instead.
  - inawarminister 3y ago
    Uh, millions of dead Iraqis and Afghans are going to see your wish and say "sure, why not?"
- ghostwriter 3y ago
  > but if Ukraine was the size of the US with the military of the US, I wouldn't bet on them not being horrible when invading other countries. It didn’t stop them from taking part in the invasion of Iraq: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_Mechanized_Brigade_(Ukraine) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_Mechanized_Brigade_(Ukrain... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_Mechanized_Brigade_(Ukraine) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_Mechanized_Brigade_(Ukrain...
ForestCritter 3y ago
Actually, Ukraine was forcing an ethnic, language and religious cleansing on its people in the two regions that petitioned for sovereignty. Read about this several years ago before all this stuff blew up and propaganda made stuff murky. Their current leader was put in place by a coup. The old regime was corrupt but that doesn't mean the new one is better. Ukrain was already in a civil war.
- ethbr0 3y ago
  By that standard, the UK, Spain and France are also in civil wars. IMHO, once military forces reach rough parity, civil wars should never be a justification for external involvement, because it always ends badly. Internal problems need internal solutions. If Russia and NATO had both stayed out of Ukraine, it would have been better for all Ukrainians. But we zoomed past the Rubicon on that when Crimea was invaded with actual Russian troops.
  - ForestCritter 3y ago
    Well, I'm basing my next statement on a statement from an ex military individual from Crimea, but he said that the Crimea business was a backend deal and that the military in Crimea was explicitly ordered to not engage under any circumstance. The Crimea government had no desire to stand. I do agree that Russia and Nato should keep their noses out, but then I also think so should we. Russia being bad guys doesn't make Ukraine good is the point I was trying to make.
  - cudgy 3y ago
    “By that standard, the UK, Spain and France are also in civil wars.” Nice try. How do these compare at all to the Ukraine Donbas conflict? During the span of 2014-2022, the war in Ukraine (pre Russian invasion) between Ukraine and Donbas region resulted in the following: Ukraine troops 4,647 killed, 70 missing, 13,800–14,200 wounded Donbas troops 6,517 killed, 15,800–16,200 wounded 3,404 Ukrainian civilians killed 14,200–14,400 Donbas killed 51,000–54,000 wounded overall 1.6 million Ukrainians internally displaced; over 1 million fled abroad https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas_(2014–2022) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas_(2014–2022)

cultofmetatron 3y ago

> But meddling in Africa will surely be made public at one point or another. The french has most of africa on lockdown in that regard